discussion Study: Rich Americans scammed the PPP program; 75% of loans didn't go to employees

[Communion]

 

Quote

As noted earlier, the PPP was timely. It began distributing funds within three weeks of the declaration of a national emergency; by comparison, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act did not become law until more than a year following the onset of the Great Recession in December 2007.

 

But was the PPP well targeted? In particular, how much employment did it support at small firms? Over what time frame? At what cost? And was its distribution of benefits fair in the sense that greater benefits accrued to lower-income households?

Quote

But preserving jobs was expensive. The study found that, depending on the assumptions, the cost per job saved for one year was $169,000 to $258,000, which was much higher than the average amount—$58,200—paid in wages and benefits to small-business employees in 2020. The authors concluded that the PPP cost taxpayers roughly $4 for every $1 of wages and benefits received by workers in “saved” jobs.

Quote

The “leakage”—$3 out of every $4 distributed through the program—went to small-business owners. According to the study, small-business owners shared these dollars with suppliers, whose sales to loan recipients were greater than they would have been without the PPP, and with banks and other lenders in the form of greater loan volumes and fees for PPP loan administration.

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Another aspect of targeting concerns the PPP’s progressivity (that is, when greater benefits flow to lower-income households) or regressivity (when greater benefits flow to higher-income households). This is a relevant metric because rank-and-file workers employed by small businesses were the intended beneficiaries of the PPP. 

 

The study estimated that only about one-quarter of the PPP’s $800 billion outlay ultimately accrued to workers whose jobs were saved. Based on the known distributions of incomes among workers in small businesses, as well as on the incomes of bank and small-business owners (both PPP loan recipients and their suppliers), the authors estimated that 72% of PPP funds were captured by households with incomes in the top 20% of the national distribution.

Quote

More than 90% of the nearly $800 billion of PPP loans were forgiven by June 20, 2022, making the program largely temporary as well.1

https://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/regional-economist/2022/jul/was-paycheck-protection-program-effective

[A Bomb]

Absolutely shocking. No one could have predicted that the laziest among America would take money for themselves, and have that loan forgiven! 
 

But liberals will continue to foam at the mouth at student debt forgiveness.  

[LustSpell]

No ****

[Jennifer]

SHOCKER. 
 

I don’t know when liberals and leftists will wake up and realize all their nonsense regarding big government programs and spending will NEVER work. 

[Communion]

2 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

I don’t know when liberals and leftists will wake up and realize all their nonsense regarding big government programs and spending will NEVER work. 

Funny you mention big government spending by leftists:

Quote

In terms of progressivity, the distribution of PPP benefits compares unfavorably with the other two major fiscal-policy programs during COVID-19, which issued $680 billion in unemployment insurance payments and $800 billion in economic impact payments, according to the study. About 20% to 25% of unemployment insurance payments went to households with incomes in the top 20% of the national distribution, while just 10% to 15% of stimulus checks—up to $1,200 per adult and $500 per qualifying child—went to households with that level of income.

We had three main stimulus programs in the wreck of COVID:

• Paycheck Protection Program -> 72% went to households in the Top 20%
• Extended Unemployment Insurance -> 20% went to households in the Top 20%
• Economic Impact Payments (Stimulus Checks) -> 10% went to households in the Top 20%

It looks like the economic stimulus programs crafted by progressives were a major success, while the ones crafted by those with "small" businesses and others in mind went bust. 

 

Could have given out a whole another round or two of stimulus checks instead of letting "small business owners" build a new pool in their backyard or something!

[Jennifer]

1 minute ago, Communion said:

Funny you mention big government spending by leftists:

We had three main stimulus programs in the wreck of COVID:

• Paycheck Protection Program -> 72% went to households in the Top 20%
• Extended Unemployment Insurance -> 20% went to households in the Top 20%
• Economic Impact Payments (Stimulus Checks) -> 10% went to households in the Top 20%

It looks like the economic stimulus programs crafted by progressives were a major success, while the ones crafted by those with "small" businesses and others in mind went bust. 

 

Could have given out a whole another round or two of stimulus checks instead of letting "small business owners" build a new pool in their backyard or something!

None of this goes against what I said. Richer people are always going to find ways to get more out of it and leave crumbs for the lower classes. That’s exactly what happened here and we all saw it happening in real time and yet “progressives” kept asking for more spending/money as if the upper middle and upper classes weren’t gonna make sure they got much more. And of course, who’s doing better now? 
 

It’s just so unrealistic and stuff like that can only work in very small homogeneous countries where everyone doesn’t hate eachother. 

[frenchyisback]

 

I’m glad the companies kept the money left if they had to deal with half the BS I dealt with from some employees during COVID.

 

if people can stay home for 2 years and walk away with $80K in enhanced unemployment; then those business owners also deserve free PPP money. 

 

The entire stimulus was disastrous.

PPP seems 75% more expensive than required.

Unemployment were 100% longer than needed (we just needed 1 year, we got 2)

 

But liberals always think more money is better .

 

Then they wonder where the inflation comes from. Larry Summers called it!

Edited July 10, 2022 by frenchyisback

[Communion]

1 minute ago, Jennifer said:

None of this goes against what I said. Richer people are always going to find ways to get more out of it and leave crumbs for the lower classes. That’s exactly what happened here

Exactly. Which is why we need progressive policies that give directly to working class Americans, not policies made for orgs and businesses that distribute funds to third parties who then decide based on charity who gets help.

 

The PPP program was literally means-tested in the same way stimulus checks were - but in the reverse.

Having a small business is literally means-testing on the basis of a financial asset few poor people have.

 

It was always going to result in a handout to the rich based on the reality the business-owning class are rich.

 

Again, you can't say "rich people will always do _______" when the three programs have drastically different results. Handing money to poor people quite literally resulted in ensuring most money went to poor people.

 

In fact, we saw extended unemployment get cut short and even Dems lie to us about the full check they owed us, yet every conservative rich Joe and Nancy was still able to get their PPP loans to get their business going.

 

I know not everyone has their reading comprehension caps today - it is the weekend after all - but some of y'all at one point had to take the L's you've been begging for. Conservative economics fail. Neoliberal economics fail. The only portion the American people have liked about the last 3 years were progressive projects to put money in their hands and which argued housing is a right, a paycheck is a right, economic stability is a right, etc.

 

We have mass inflation now because of massive stock buybacks and most of the stimulus spending going to corporations and the affluent classes. Last time this happened, French people started wilding out with guillotines and ****. If I was a banker or a real estate portfolio owner, I wouldn't be going near any dangerous places.

[DAP]

18 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

None of this goes against what I said. Richer people are always going to find ways to get more out of it and leave crumbs for the lower classes. That’s exactly what happened here and we all saw it happening in real time and yet “progressives” kept asking for more spending/money as if the upper middle and upper classes weren’t gonna make sure they got much more. And of course, who’s doing better now? 
 

It’s just so unrealistic and stuff like that can only work in very small homogeneous countries where everyone doesn’t hate eachother. 

It does as these loopholes exist because our welfare state has eroded precipitously for 50 years, not because government assistance of any kind is fundamentally flawed. 

Edited July 10, 2022 by DAP

[Jennifer]

6 minutes ago, Communion said:

Exactly. Which is why we need progressive policies that give directly to working class Americans, not policies made for orgs and businesses that distribute funds to third parties who then decide based on charity who gets help.

 

The PPP program was literally means-tested in the same way stimulus checks were - but in the reverse.

Having a small business is literally means-testing on the basis of a financial asset few poor people have.

 

It was always going to result in a handout to the rich based on the reality the business-owning class are rich.

 

Again, you can't say "rich people will always do _______" when the three programs have drastically different results. Handing money to poor people quite literally resulted in ensuring most money went to poor people.

 

In fact, we saw extended unemployment get cut short and even Dems lie to us about the full check they owed us, yet every conservative rich Joe and Nancy was still able to get their PPP loans to get their business going.

 

I know not everyone has their reading comprehension caps today - it is the weekend after all - but some of y'all at one point had to take the L's you've been begging for. Conservative economics fail. Neoliberal economics fail. The only portion the American people have liked about the last 3 years were progressive projects to put money in their hands and which argued housing is a right, a paycheck is a right, economic stability is a right, etc.

 

We have mass inflation now because of massive stock buybacks and most of the stimulus spending going to corporations and the affluent classes. Last time this happened, French people started wilding out with guillotines and ****. If I was a banker or a real estate portfolio owner, I wouldn't be going near any dangerous places.

ALL of this is based on the idea that some noble hero politician is gonna come in and save the day. Sis WAKE UP. Anyone that gets money and/or power is not gonna be in it for you. KNOW that. 

[VOSS]

I work at a bank and… a lot of clients got PPP loans that absolutely did not need them (and they were pretty much all forgiven)

[Jennifer]

And as for the American people revolting….lmao. This country is so fkn fat and drugged up, they couldn’t walk a mile….

 

You know what I’m gonna stop before I say something that gets me banned. ?

[Communion]

3 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

ALL of this is based on the idea that we should continue to do the extremely popular policies COVID already forced us to do and expand on them to join other developed nations in a higher quality of life

Yes! You're so close to getting it!

[Communion]

10 minutes ago, DAP said:

It does as these loopholes exist because our welfare state has eroded precipitously for 50 years, not because government assistance of any kind is fundamentally flawed. 

If you give everyone healthcare and education for free, won't have to worry about disproportionately helping the rich. 

[XAMJ]

You can thank trump, he literally fired the agency in charge of ensuring people weren’t scamming 

[ClashAndBurn]

I'm sure that the scammed PPP money is more "inflationary" than the means-tested crumbs tossed out by the American Rescue Plan, but of course the one that actually helped even a marginal amount of working people is what's getting scapegoated so that we go back to Reaganesque austerity for a generation.

 

I hate it here.  

[katara]

20 hours ago, Jennifer said:

And as for the American people revolting….lmao. This country is so fkn fat and drugged up, they couldn’t walk a mile….

 

You know what I’m gonna stop before I say something that gets me banned. ?

 

Tea tho. Let's also not forget the deep hatred a huge chunk of americans harbor for their fellow citizens. For them it's much more important that other people (usually minorities) suffer than their own life quality to become better. I don't think ameircans can ever unite and fight the ruling class. Most of them just want to become part of the ruling class themselves so they can oppress and look down on everyone else. A lost cause in all aspects.

[frenchyisback]

18 hours ago, katara said:

 

Tea tho. Let's also not forget the deep hatred a huge chunk of americans harbor for their fellow citizens. For them it's much more important that other people (usually minorities) suffer than their own life quality to become better. I don't think ameircans can ever unite and fight the ruling class. Most of them just want to become part of the ruling class themselves so they can oppress and look down on everyone else. A lost cause in all aspects.

Then they wonder why we don’t vote for them. A huge part of the left hates America & are extremely condescending toward Americans.

 

They rightfully deserve to be call out as unpatriotic.

 

By the way, the fat people & drug addicts they make fun of are primarily made up of the poor they lecture us about everyday as if they actually cared.

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by frenchyisback

[supertiffany]

then we have people here still worshipping trump 

[If U Seek Amy]

I work in compliance in banking and the PPP program was a complete disaster. The amount of fraud this program generated is astounding. There were some months that every single review involved PPP fraud of some sort. Massive amounts of personal vacations and personal purchases and gambling and more. It was actually more rare to see it used for it's intended purpose than it was for illegal purposes.