Papa Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 Just now, GraceRandolph said: Yeah because they did not have the technology to transition, but many cultures did recognize them as a third gender, or some form of transgender. Ofcourse, just because something is possible doesn't mean we should do it, science is capable of a lot things. They were celebrated for what they are, unlike our society that looks down on males or females who do not fit into the imaginary boxes
GraceRandolph Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 1 minute ago, Papa said: How? Sorry i am replying to like 100 people at the same time it is hard to keep track Science has validated transgender identity, and found transition to be the most helpful treatment for gender dysphoria. Your utopia where getting rid of gender signifiers means gender dysphoria becomes extinct is not logical because gender dysphoria is a complex phenomenon mostly about dysphoria relating to sex characteristics, not only gender signifiers.
GraceRandolph Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 1 minute ago, Papa said: Ofcourse, just because something is possible doesn't mean we should do it, science is capable of a lot things. They were celebrated for what they are, unlike our society that looks down on males or females who do not fit into the imaginary boxes Nnnnn, so people should not be allowed to transition? Maybe you should join a Nazi party? They believed the same thing and burned down one of the first transgender health clinics.
Ubermensch Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Sugar-Rush said: "Imagined attacks"? Considering that childbirth is exclusive to cis women 99.9% of the time, it's not really a stretch to say that gender neutral language is an attack on women. Cis women are still included in more generalized language. It's an attack on nobody and in some contexts is used to specifically make sure that peen having people aren't wrongly included in discussions about something they aren't capable of. Edited July 5, 2022 by Century
gatito Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 10 minutes ago, Papa said: I don't see the point you are trying to make. I will fully accept them as i would any other human, but i can't ignore reality to live in a fantasy world where science is thrown out of the window my point is, it’s none of your business
Communion Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 Just now, Papa said: but throughout society people did not feel the need to transition This is a fallacy for numerous reason. Mainly because, by the same token, the idea of homosexual relationships are a fairly new phenomenon, and such similar reasoning is used to demonize gay people, but also because, in the discussion of medical advancements, "we didn't do x 400 years ago" is a horrific reference for one's logic. We also used to historically perform lobotomies for a myriad of "suffering" that we understand now to be mental illnesses that can be addressed with medicine or therapy (lobotomies and institutionalization historically being weaponized against women, which adds irony to this). The first "bottom surgery" on a trans person was performed over 100 years ago. Trans people also transitioned both socially and in a myriad of physical ways for hundreds of years prior to that.
Papa Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 2 minutes ago, GraceRandolph said: Science has validated transgender identity, and found transition to be the most helpful treatment for gender dysphoria. Your utopia where getting rid of gender signifiers means gender dysphoria becomes extinct is not logical because gender dysphoria is a complex phenomenon mostly about dysphoria relating to sex characteristics, not only gender signifiers. I am not saying it will become extinct. If that is the best treatment for them then they should do it, but i am saying it does not change reality. Even if someone is born male and they transition to what society says is a female, they will still be male, they have just changed their appearance to what society says is a female.
Abracadabra Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 11 minutes ago, Papa said: I swear i am not transphobic, i am the most leftie person you will ever meet and hate how this discussion has been hijacked by actual transphobic right wingers. I am speaking with what i deem to be correct and rational. You say it has nothing to do with societal norms but you are the one who said they need to match their gender, which is all about society. As for the 3 year old knowing they were trans, in my understanding that just means they don't fit into the gender roles assigned to their sex, there is nothing wrong with that and they shouldn't need to "transition" to anything, let them live their life without forcing them into the female box Okay well if you aren't transphobic, then why are you questioning and challenging trans peoples identities? You do realise there is more to gender than just societal norms, right? You can be a trans women and be masculine. You can be a trans man and be feminine. Those things are not mutually exclusive. And if you are trans and dress in a way that is the "norm" for your post-transition gender, that can just be how you are comfortable presenting. To reduce it to essentially playing dress up and just not feeling comfortable with societal norms is transphobic.
Mikeymoonshine Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 Imagine if the people who claim it's dehumanising to say "people who menstruate" had the same energy for those who misgender trans people.
Papa Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 3 minutes ago, GraceRandolph said: Nnnnn, so people should not be allowed to transition? Maybe you should join a Nazi party? They believed the same thing and burned down one of the first transgender health clinics. If it makes them feel better than ofcourse they should, it doesn't change their sex though, they have just changed to conform to a societies standards. Even going as far as having SRS, which i think is crazy and barbaric, and we should have never let anyone get to a point where they feel that is what they need to do
God_Donna Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 She is fine. And she didn’t say anything transphobic. She is not problematic at all I mean come on.
GraceRandolph Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 Just now, Papa said: Even going as far as having SRS, which i think is crazy and barbaric, and we should have never let anyone get to a point where they feel that is what they need to do ☠️
Papa Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 1 minute ago, Miichael said: Okay well if you aren't transphobic, then why are you questioning and challenging trans peoples identities? You do realise there is more to gender than just societal norms, right? You can be a trans women and be masculine. You can be a trans man and be feminine. Those things are not mutually exclusive. And if you are trans and dress in a way that is the "norm" for your post-transition gender, that can just be how you are comfortable presenting. To reduce it to essentially playing dress up and just not feeling comfortable with societal norms is transphobic. GIrl i am not, and we are just talking in circles at this point. I'm gonna log out because i don't think we will see eye to eye, i said what i believe and i am sorry if i offended anyone
Ubermensch Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 I still cannot believe that in 2022 the moderators of this forum are allowing people to refer to transitioning as mutilation. What a ******* joke.
GraceRandolph Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 1 minute ago, Century said: I still cannot believe that in 2022 the moderators of this forum are allowing people to refer to transitioning as mutilation. What a ******* joke. It’s really ridiculous. Literal Nazi talking points have become common place in public discourse.
Abracadabra Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 3 minutes ago, Papa said: If it makes them feel better than ofcourse they should, it doesn't change their sex though, they have just changed to conform to a societies standards. Even going as far as having SRS, which i think is crazy and barbaric, and we should have never let anyone get to a point where they feel that is what they need to do Wtf
FreeXone Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 5 minutes ago, Papa said: If it makes them feel better than ofcourse they should, it doesn't change their sex though, they have just changed to conform to a societies standards. Even going as far as having SRS, which i think is crazy and barbaric, and we should have never let anyone get to a point where they feel that is what they need to do Girl please pack it up.
Communion Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Sugar-Rush said: gender neutral language is an attack on women. The vast majority of this language is used on medical forms. You can't ask someone if they're a woman on a medical form to field for if they menstruate because not all cis women menstruate while many trans men do. Those trying to claim this language is replacing words like "women" are lying or being duped by far-right actors to feel outrage over how we discuss language used almost exclusively in medical, clinical settings. Even organizations like Planned Parenthood, whose purpose is to offer health and medical services, still largely uses words like "woman" and "women" as its main word choice across its website, social media, press releases, etc. You have literally been linked to it in this thread. The claim that people cannot say the word "woman" anymore is an outright neo-nazi fueled lie. Of course people should be UNDERSTANDING to why misogyny has made older cis women triggered by such terminology, but that is no excuse to allow what are literally those who championed the overturning Roe v Wade now further fuel a disinformation campaign meant to attack trans people. Edited July 5, 2022 by Communion
Ubermensch Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, GraceRandolph said: It’s really ridiculous. Literal Nazi talking points have become common place in public discourse. You would think on a forum where almost everybody is lgbt or a woman, that it would be a safe space for lgbt people and women. I guess not Edited July 5, 2022 by Century
GraceRandolph Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 1 minute ago, Communion said: The vast majority of this language is used on medical forms. You can't ask someone if they're a woman on a medical form to field for if they menstruate because not all cis women menstruate while many trans men do. Those trying to claim this language is replacing words like "women" are lying or being duped by far-right actors to feel outrage over how we discuss language used almost exclusively in medical, clinical settings. Even organizations like Planned Parenthood, whose purpose is to offer health and medical services, still largely uses words like "woman" and "women" as its main word choice across its website, social media, press releases, etc. yes, this is so true. Medical language is meant to be very dry and technical, and people don’t seem to get that.
Vin Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 3 minutes ago, Communion said: Again, the claim that the words "woman" or "women" have been removed from organizations that handle abortion rights is demonstratively false. It is objectively, by every sense of the word, not true. To make the claim is to lie. Thanks for providing a source, @Communion. After reading the article, I now have more context and a better understanding of the full picture surrounding Midler's tweet. I wouldn't change the majority of my original post, however, I would add, that after reading that New York Times article, Midler clearly was unknowingly using "far-right" tactics by using those incendiary terms from the article—"birthing people," menstruators," et cetera. She could have made her point about Roe v Wade and about women's rights without pulling a Fox News, because now her point is lost and people are attaching "transphobia" to it. But, I'd like believe everyone agrees: women shouldn't be referred to as "birthing people" or "menstruators." As of now, it's a public relations issue. What can we call women who give birth that's inclusive and that doesn't "erase women" or "lessen women". A new term needs to be made. ...Vin
Literature Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 (edited) History is following the trajectory of a parabola it seems: The Far Right and Far Left Agree on One Thing: Women Don’t Count Edit: Appears this article has already made some waves in this thread Edited July 5, 2022 by Literature
GraceRandolph Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 2 minutes ago, Literature said: History is following the trajectory of a parabola it seems: The Far Right and Far Left Agree on One Thing: Women Don’t Count Edit: Appears this article has already made some waves in this thread Not this article implying that supporting trans people makes you “far left”
Communion Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 5 minutes ago, GraceRandolph said: yes, this is so true. Medical language is meant to be very dry and technical, and people don’t seem to get that. The same people playing dumb will then get mad when this empowers accounts like the below: ...who is underneath Bette's tweet sayings to ~not back down from the trans rights activists!!!!~.
Harrier Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 There is a way to make this point in a less defensive way. I have been noticing the 'pregnant people' language and while I understand the sentiment, I feel that in this case it's much better to just say women. Women are 99.9% of the people affected by these laws. I don't know. If I were a trans guy, I feel that I'd understand that I'm a tiny percentage of the population, and maybe it's a little self-important to expect others to change their language just for me. Again, I understand the inclusive sentiment - people are not out here trying to erase women deliberately. But I just feel that there is something off here about labelling a women's issue a people's issue. As long as trans people have their rights, which ghouls like JKR want to take away, isn't that all that matters?
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