celeb news Bette Midler turns into Jk Rowling, post transphobic tweet

[Mikeymoonshine]

I think it's hilarious that you all think it's a "good point" to link a handful of articles and websites using non gender specific language to talk about certain body parts with the Roe vs Wade decision. It's completely unrelated. 

 

Funny how that nonsense gets so much traction but the fact that anti trans "feminists' have constantly worked with anti abortion orgs and associated with anti abortion activists like Matt Walsh doesn't. 

[FreeXone]

It is about roe vs wade

[Orsay]

She seems to be conflating issues.. it’s not the people supporting trans issues (of which only a FRINGE seriously ask that women be referred to as “birthing people” ) that are trying to “control womens bodies” (i.e. ban abortion), they’re opposite sides of the political spectrum  

 

I really don’t know what she’s talking about, boomer libs are all pretty brain fried

[worldwide angel]

Y’all are so transphobic  hiding behind terms and tired debates that have been resolved alread my (see: pregnant people) 

 

But oh well, maybe you’ll wake up when it’s 2030 and enough of your rights have been snatched…but then again, a lot of y’all would play doormat for a Nazi if he had a functioning ***** and muscles  

[FreeXone]

15 minutes ago, Beyonnaise said:

I think it’s a complicated discussion that women and trans people should be the focus of, men shouldn’t talk over them.

 

I’ve seen some non-TERF women who genuinely support trans inclusion but find “menstruators” and “birthing people” objectifying and dehumanizing, and they make a valid point. Men are never referred to as “ejaculators” or “prostate-havers”. New language takes time obviously, and referring to “women, trans men and non-binary people” when discussing reproductive rights is a mouthful, so naturally this will be a sticking point until some agreement is reached. But I have noticed some TERF women capitalize on issues like this to try and convert others to their transphobic agenda which is genuinely gross.

As a trans person who and where are they calling people that lmao i have never heard anyone use it. 

[Mast]

TRLA gays being right-wing and reactionary yet again, aligning themselves with Republican talking points and then wondering why the U.S. keeps going to ****. Can't say I'm surprised.

 

Y'all keep talking about "the left" when you ant even define what that means to y'all (hint, that's a term that conservatives have hijacked to refer to any ideology that's socially progressive). Y'all also keep overreacting like people are calling women "menstruators" to their face on a daily basis, which is not the case. Terms like "people who menstruate," "people who birth," etc are used specifically on the context of reproductive rights because THOSE ARE RIGHTS THAT CONCERN MORE THAN JUST CIS WOMEN. It really costs nothing to acknowledge that trans people exist. They are medically accurate terms. No one is forcing y'all to stop calling cis women "women," but we are asking that we are intentional and accurate as to what reproductive rights encompasses. No one is erasing women for fucks sake. if anything, the focus on language over, idk, the actual abolition of access to safe abortions is literally scapegoating the actual issue and the actual bad actors at hand, which are right-wingers who are currently in turbo mode trying to infuse our laws with their religious ideology when government and church are supposed to be separate. Liberals will be the end of us because y'all love to feign being progressive and at the end of the day adopt right-wing talking points such as the ones in this entire thread. Y'all make me sick, genuinely.

 

How many times have y'all heard someone say "oh, they're a person who births" on casual day to day conversations? The answer is ******* never. Is is literally used 99.99% of the time in the context of reproductive rights only. And y'all are the same people who then go on to say that people "on the left" have fake outrage.

 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Mast

[Mikeymoonshine]

2 minutes ago, Communion said:

Again, this is demonstratively false. You are spreading far-right propaganda.

 

https://www.aclu.org/issues/reproductive-freedom/abortion

https://www.prochoiceamerica.org/issue/abortion-access/

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/get-care/our-services/womens-services

 

It is one thing to be sensitive to why cis women from a previous generation may be uncomfortable with certain, newer medicalized language. It is another to lie and be dishonest. The inclusion of new language is not the removal of previous language. You are quite literally lying that the term "woman" has been removed from these orgs. 

[awesomepossum]

On 7/4/2022 at 9:00 PM, Communion said:

Again, this is demonstratively false. You are spreading far-right propaganda.

 

https://www.aclu.org/issues/reproductive-freedom/abortion

https://www.prochoiceamerica.org/issue/abortion-access/

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/get-care/our-services/womens-services

 

It is one thing to be sensitive to why cis women from a previous generation may be uncomfortable with certain, newer medicalized language. It is another to lie and be dishonest. The inclusion of new language is not the removal of previous language. You are quite literally lying that the term "woman" has been removed from these orgs. 

Those organizations just haven't realized how transphobic they are yet. They need to educate themselves.

Edited March 4, 2023 by awesomepossum

[Pans Labyrinth]

She spilled 

[kyliefever2002]

8 minutes ago, Miichael said:

except you literally are saying all of those things but okay  at least try to defend your point if you are going to be so passionate about it rather than just denying what is there in black and white because you have no argument

i did defend my point several times  i said this was mainly a womens issue but trans folks were still included

and then you proceeded to say that me denying that this was a womens issue was misogynistic 

i said birthing people and menstruators werent the ideal terms and you kept repeating that many women dont dentify with them even though i said may times they are not ideal at all 

i said we should seek for a language thats inclusive to all, you kept saying that the language i was choosing was not inclusive to women 

im not gonna keep repeating myself if youre just gonna say whatever that doesnt apply to what i am saying, in fact, its the complete opposite  

hope you find someone else to keep entertaining yourself or go scream to a wall or whatever, idc 

[Apolonio ₃₄]

The meltdown  

[Miichael]

13 minutes ago, Papa said:

See this is why i don't like talking about it, because people throw out phrases like ignorant and transphobic to try and shut down discussion. Why don't you educate me then? Why do trans people transition? 

I'm not trying to shut down discussion... it just was ignorant and transphobic, even if that being pointed out upsets you. Trans people transition to match their physical sex they were assigned at birth with the gender they are internally. It's quite simple really and I'm surprised that needs to be explained to you in 2022, but okay. There's also a tonne of scientific research into the difference between gender and physical sex, so you should look into that.

 

You also seem to be mistaking trans people for just men who feel feminine or women who feel masculine in a material sense, when that really isn't correct. A trans woman can transition and wear trousers, short hair, and no make-up for the rest of her life and she will still be a woman, vice versa with trans men. You claim that trans people transition to confirm to society's ideas of gender, when in reality it is you that is enforcing those societal codes, not trans people, by reducing them to just the clothes they wear. In some cases, the clothing and physical appearance is important in order to make a trans person feel more comfortable and happy in being their true self, but it's not about that solely...

[FreeXone]

48 minutes ago, Papa said:

genetic markers for what? how "feminine" or "masculine" a baby might be when they grow up? When the baby is born it is either a male or a female. Stop buying into the boxes society gives the sexes, let them both be as feminine and masculine as they can be without traumatizing people into feeling the need to mutilate themselves to fit into a box society finds more accepting. 

Yikes

[Vin]

 

This thread/the internet is bizarre—very "South Park." This is my first time talking about trans issues, so my footing may be off. Reading the tweet, I saw nothing transphobic. Is there something said in the tweet that is specifically what transphobic people say? I also read through the thread and I disagree that "inclusive language" should be included in every single thing you say or post. It reeks of entitlement and sounds self-absorbed, i.e. "If me and my struggles and concerns aren't included in your post about you and your own struggles and concerns, then you're a bad person and I'm letting everyone know." People—men, women, children, LGBTQIA, et cetera—should have (and do have) the freedom of expressing their own personal struggles and fears without going through a laundry list of "inclusive language" to "appease every single group." People in the real world aren't thinking about that. Inclusivity of language would be nice, and it doesn't hurt, but that shouldn't be a requirement to being a good person and that shouldn't be a requirement before you can post or say anything about an important topic. Not everything is about everyone; some things, in fact, most things are just about you... and that's fine. You can clearly see there was no malice in that tweet and that she was speaking from her own point of view. There's a war in Ukraine, and in America, abortion is being criminalized and the use of IUDs is being criminalized, and the rights of LGBTQIA are in danger of being stripped away by the Supreme Court. Focus this energy on that and voting in the next election, instead of attacking yet another woman.

 

...Vin

[Communion]

3 minutes ago, awesomepossum said:

Those organizations just haven't realized how transphobic they are yet.

Okay avatar-less user with 150 posts across 5 years, great  contribution. 

[Miichael]

1 minute ago, kyliefever2002 said:

i did defend my point several times  i said this was mainly a womens issue but trans folks were still included

and then you proceeded to say that me denying that this was a womens issue was misogynistic 

i said birthing people and menstruators werent the ideal terms and you kept repeating that many women dont dentify with them even though i said may times they are not ideal at all 

i said we should seek for a language thats inclusive to all, you kept saying that the language i was choosing was not inclusive to women 

im not gonna keep repeating myself if youre just gonna say whatever that doesnt apply to what i am saying, in fact, its the complete opposite  

hope you find someone else to keep entertaining yourself or go scream to a wall or whatever, idc 

you just don't get it  you aren't going to find "inclusive language" that is inclusive to all because cis women identify as women. you can seek all you want, you won't be finding it

[Daniel767]

1 hour ago, Brando said:

there's no need to erase a term for 99.999% of the population just to sound "inclusive" for some singular cases. 

 

1 hour ago, Brando said:

no wonder the left keeps losing at elections. the far-left completely hijacked all the talking points and shuts down anyone who disagrees with their ridiculous beliefs

 

1 hour ago, Miichael said:

Asking for women to not be referred to as "birthing people" is not excluding trans men  What are you talking about?

all of this .. 

[awesomepossum]

Just now, Communion said:

Okay avatar-less user with 150 posts across 5 years, great  contribution. 

Hey I'm just trying to do my part to support trans rights by calling out those transphobic organizations you linked in your post. I'm out here on the front lines doing the work. Don't come for me 

[worldwide angel]

5 minutes ago, Mast said:

TRLA gays being right-wing and reactionary yet again, aligning themselves with Republican talking points and then wondering why the U.S. keeps going to ****. Can't say I'm surprised.

 

Y'all keep talking about "the left" when you ant even define what that means to y'all (hint, that's a term that conservatives have hijacked to refer to any ideology that's socially progressive). Y'all also keep overreacting like people are calling women "menstruators" to their face on a daily basis, which is not the case. Terms like "people who menstruate," "people who birth," etc are used specifically on the context of reproductive rights because THOSE ARE RIGHTS THAT CONCERN MORE THAN JUST CIS WOMEN. It really costs nothing to acknowledge that trans people exist. They are medically accurate terms. No one is forcing y'all to stop calling cis women "women," but we are asking that we are intentional and accurate as to what reproductive rights encompasses. No one is erasing women for fucks sake. if anything, the focus on language over, idk, the actual abolition of access to safe abortions is literally scapegoating the actual issue and the actual bad actors at hand, which are right-wingers who are currently in turbo mode trying to infuse our laws with their religious ideology when government and church are supposed to be separate. Liberals will be the end of us because y'all love to feign being progressive and at the end of the day adopt right-wing talking points such as the ones in this entire thread. Y'all make me sick, genuinely.

[Mikeymoonshine]

It would be a lot easier to come up with trans inclusive language that everyone (or at least most people) were happy with if the conversation was not dominated by anti trans activists and people enabling  them. 

[kyliefever2002]

9 minutes ago, Mast said:

TRLA gays being right-wing and reactionary yet again, aligning themselves with Republican talking points and then wondering why the U.S. keeps going to ****. Can't say I'm surprised.

 

Y'all keep talking about "the left" when you ant even define what that means to y'all (hint, that's a term that conservatives have hijacked to refer to any ideology that's socially progressive). Y'all also keep overreacting like people are calling women "menstruators" to their face on a daily basis, which is not the case. Terms like "people who menstruate," "people who birth," etc are used specifically on the context of reproductive rights because THOSE ARE RIGHTS THAT CONCERN MORE THAN JUST CIS WOMEN. It really costs nothing to acknowledge that trans people exist. They are medically accurate terms. No one is forcing y'all to stop calling cis women "women," but we are asking that we are intentional and accurate as to what reproductive rights encompasses. No one is erasing women for fucks sake. if anything, the focus on language over, idk, the actual abolition of access to safe abortions is literally scapegoating the actual issue and the actual bad actors at hand, which are right-wingers who are currently in turbo mode trying to infuse our laws with their religious ideology when government and church are supposed to be separate. Liberals will be the end of us because y'all love to feign being progressive and at the end of the day adopt right-wing talking points such as the ones in this entire thread. Y'all make me sick, genuinely.

 

How many times have y'all heard someone say "oh, they're a person who births" on casual day to day conversations? The answer is ******* never. Is is literally used 99.99% of the time in the context of reproductive rights only. And y'all are the same people who then go on to say that people "on the left" have fake outrage.

 

ugh THIS

thank you for this

i was starting to think i was going crazy for a sec 

[Communion]

8 minutes ago, Mast said:

TRLA gays being right-wing and reactionary yet again, aligning themselves with Republican talking points and then wondering why the U.S. keeps going to ****. Can't say I'm surprised.

 

Y'all keep talking about "the left" when you ant even define what that means to y'all (hint, that's a term that conservatives have hijacked to refer to any ideology that's socially progressive). Y'all also keep overreacting like people are calling women "menstruators" to their face on a daily basis, which is not the case. Terms like "people who menstruate," "people who birth," etc are used specifically on the context of reproductive rights because THOSE ARE RIGHTS THAT CONCERN MORE THAN JUST CIS WOMEN. It really costs nothing to acknowledge that trans people exist. They are medically accurate terms. No one is forcing y'all to stop calling cis women "women," but we are asking that we are intentional and accurate as to what reproductive rights encompasses. No one is erasing women for fucks sake. if anything, the focus on language over, idk, the actual abolition of access to safe abortions is literally scapegoating the actual issue and the actual bad actors at hand, which are right-wingers who are currently in turbo mode trying to infuse our laws with their religious ideology when government and church are supposed to be separate. Liberals will be the end of us because y'all love to feign being progressive and at the end of the day adopt right-wing talking points such as the ones in this entire thread. Y'all make me sick, genuinely.

 

How many times have y'all heard someone say "oh, they're a person who births" on casual day to day conversations? The answer is ******* never. Is is literally used 99.99% of the time in the context of reproductive rights only. And y'all are the same people who then go on to say that people "on the left" have fake outrage.

 

They jump to the most reactionary position possible and then wonder how white supremacists are showing up at gay clubs with weapons ready to kill gay men when they are willing to peddle the most blatant anti-trans lies. 

 

 

[Sheep]

8 minutes ago, Vin said:

 

This thread/the internet is bizarre—very "South Park." This is my first time talking about trans issues, so my footing may be off. Reading the tweet, I saw nothing transphobic. Is there something said in the tweet that is specifically what transphobic people say? I also read through the thread and I disagree that "inclusive language" should be included in every single thing you say or post. It reeks of entitlement and sounds self-absorbed, i.e. "If me and my struggles and concerns aren't included in your post about you and your own struggles and concerns, then you're a bad person and I'm letting everyone know." People—men, women, children, LGBTQIA, et cetera—should have (and do have) the freedom of expressing their own personal struggles and fears without going through a laundry list of "inclusive language" to "appease every single group." People in the real world aren't thinking about that. Inclusivity of language would be nice, and it doesn't hurt, but that shouldn't be a requirement to being a good person and that shouldn't be a requirement before you can post or say anything about an important topic. Not everything is about everyone; some things, in fact, most things are just about you... and that's fine. You can clearly see there was no malice in that tweet and that she was speaking from her own point of view. There's a war in Ukraine, and in America, abortion is being criminalized and the use of IUDs is being criminalized, and the rights of LGBTQIA are in danger of being stripped away by the Supreme Court. Focus this energy on that and voting in the next election, instead of attacking yet another woman.

 

...Vin

Except there was clear malice in her tweet because it was an angered response to inclusive language, and not about using it all the time. You’re so willing to read everything into the responses to Bette and make wild accusations about attacking women but apparently don’t want to address the main topic of the tweet. I wonder why. 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Century

[Mast]

24 minutes ago, Papa said:

See this is why i don't like talking about it, because people throw out phrases like ignorant and transphobic to try and shut down discussion. Why don't you educate me then? Why do trans people transition? 

Because they're trans??? A lot of trans people experience both or either body dysmorphia or gender dysphoria. The former being the often debilitating experience that there is something fundamentally wrong with your body, the latter being that your assigned gender is different from the fender one perceives themselves to be or experience, and both of these can lead to long-lasting mental health effects on trans people (depression, anxiety, eating disorder). Although transitioning doesn't necessarily "cure" these experiences (you have to remember that trans people still experience transphobia like being perceived as their assigned gender even after transitioning), most trans people who decide to transition do report that their symptoms and self-worth do improve after transitioning. It is literally affirming to the person and how they perceive themselves inside. It has nothing to do with with just wanting to play dress-up; it is a lot more personal than that.

 

Also, generally speaking, when people call you ignorant it is not to "shut down the conversation." 9 times out of 10 it's because you genuinely said something ignorant, and that is okay as long as you are open to listening to other perspectives, so I do appreciate you asking for an explanation. But I really am tired of people throwing tantrums when they are rightfully told they sound out of pocket.

[Papa]

1 minute ago, Miichael said:

I'm not trying to shut down discussion... it just was ignorant and transphobic, even if that being pointed out upsets you. Trans people transition to match their physical sex they were assigned at birth with the gender they are internally. It's quite simple really and I'm surprised that needs to be explained to you in 2022, but okay. There's also a tonne of scientific research into the difference between gender and physical sex, so you should look into that.

 

You also seem to be mistaking trans people for just men who feel feminine or women who feel masculine in a material sense, when that really isn't correct. A trans woman can transition and wear trousers, short hair, and no make-up for the rest of her life and she will still be a woman, vice versa with trans men. You claim that trans people transition to confirm to society's ideas of gender, when in reality it is you that is enforcing those societal codes, not trans people, by reducing them to just the clothes they wear. In some cases, the clothing and physical appearance is important in order to make a trans person feel more comfortable and happy in being their true self, but it's not about that solely...

Quote

"Trans people transition to match their physical sex they were assigned at birth with the gender they are internally."

You can't switch your sex, no matter what a person does, their sex will always remain the same, so that is the first point. You can't alter a persons dna to change their chromosomes, it is not something that can be changed. Secondly you say "gender they are internally", gender is a funny thing because it is made up by society, based on social and cultural differences rather than biological ones.  The gender they feel internally as you claim, is what they are forced to believe by what society deems acceptable for a male and female, you are proving my point. They are changing themsleves because society deems it unacceptable for a male to live out his gender in this way, so that must mean they are to switch into the box that society deems acceptable for that gender, which is female. These boxes should not exist and both sexes should be able to live their lives anywhere on a gender spectrum. 

 

Quote

A trans woman can transition and wear trousers, short hair, and no make-up for the rest of her life and she will still be a woman

What is your definition of woman? For me a woman is an adult female, none of the gender roles that society has placed on that word is something i partake in, it is linked to biology.