celeb news Bette Midler turns into Jk Rowling, post transphobic tweet

[Vertigo Stick]

11 hours ago, Communion said:

This is all just right-wing propaganda. No one is erasing the term "women" and she, like any other poorly illiterate boomer, is buying into elite media anti-trans narratives like the op-ed recently published in the NYT. 

This. No one is trying to replace the word women. 
 

 

[GraceRandolph]

6 hours ago, applestar said:

At this point, it doesn't really matter if the left uses women or birthing people, because they've already lost on this issue and many others.

 

The left virtually can't win a debate with the right on abortion, because they'll just pivot to, "You can't even define what a woman is." Thanks to this, now contraception, gay marriage, and many more rights determined by the Roe precedent will be taken away. People will also die as a result of the Roe overturn

 

Policing language is a losing battle for anyone, and obviously we've seen the effects of that in 2016, 2018, and probably in 2022 & 2024 as well.

10 year olds are being forced to carry their fertilized-by-rape eggs over state lines due to the overturn of Roe. Trust me, most rational voters won’t give a **** about transes when these events become more common place and their wives or daughters are forced to carry babies. What slanted worldview are you coming from? Not everyone cares that much about transgender rights, and more and more Americans are coming to understand trans people. 

[Pristine]

12 hours ago, Brando said:

She has a point. Those terms are dumb and not needed

This.

[Communion]

5 hours ago, applestar said:

and Trump won in 2016 because of PC culture

No, he did not. 

 

I know plenty about how the alt-right spread their rhetoric - you yourself as espousing their talking points for them. 

 

But the narrative of the 2016 election is pretty straightforward. And again, there is no data that supports your wild conspiracy. 

 

Hillary Clinton would have won if she simply kept the 2012 Obama coalition. 

 

The issue is she did not. 

 

How didn't she? Black turnout collapsed, particularly amongst low-income black people spattered across Southern Wisconsin, Central Pennsylvania, and surrounding counties of Detriot, Michigan. 

 

That has been analyzed, studied and tabulated at great length for six years. 

 

These people who stayed home have been interviewed over and over. 

 

None of them mention "PC culture" for why they stayed home. 

 

What they did mention is how automation stole their job, their incomes stagnating, the rising costs of housing and Healthcare and education. The repeated statement is the feeling that elites no longer cared about people like them. It's material analysis, not culture war gobbledygook. 

 

This is the problem with "far left = far right' hot takes (because thats where Bette got her claims from) shared by smear merchants because they obfuscate that the center is the one peddling the same goals as the far right and that the real divisions are top-bottom and rooted in class. 

 

 

Trans women and men are not why SCOTUS decided to dismantle Roe v Wade. They are not why the GOP has been trying to acheice such since Reagan as funded by billionaires like the Koch brothers or sprearheaded by thinktanks like the Heritage Foundation. Prp-life peopoe have hated cis women before trans people were ever visible. Most of the cultural figures suggesting such are elite white women who will not actually be materially impacted by the reversal of Roe v Wade, which is why they feel so comfortable platforming and giving voice to anti-choice conservatives if they hate trans people. When TERFs are aligning with Chris Rufo, they do not care about women. 

 

The same people telling you to hate trans people are the same people popularizing the idea that homosexuality causes pedophilia and that cis women getting abortions are murdering another human. You are being conned into a rhetoric that pits those with the least material privilege against each other to exonerate those with the most who are also responsible for trying to shape our institutions and societies in way that benefit them under white supremacy and cisheteropatriarchy. 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Communion

[Bang Up]

4 hours ago, Joesuxx said:

She has a point. They have taken the word women out of menopause guidance in my country. I don't understand why trans women and trans supporters are so vocal on this issue. The menopause is a "woman's issue". If it's not then who else does it affect? We don't have these conversations about trans men and the language applicable to testicular or prostate cancer. Women in that sense do feel marginalised. Women of a certain age feel as if oh look here's us being silenced further. When these women have protests in the street that their womanhood exists trans women have assaulted them in the street for denying their womanhood and then posted the footage on twitter as if it were an achievement. The first thing about being a woman is being there for the sisterhood and making sure their healthcare and rights are accessible. You can be an ally for the trans community and an advocate for women and their existence too. 

Trans men who have not fully transitioned also go through menopause. Why is this so hard to understand? 

 

We don't have conversations about testicular or prostate cancer with trans men because trans men don't have testicles or prostates. I think you meant to ask why we don't have these conversations with trans women. I think that's actually a good point. We don't see a lot of discussions surrounding trans women and making sure they still check themselves for cancers associated with the biological male sex. I think the problem with this for both trans men and women is that talking about biological sex is often triggering and hard to deal with. A lot of trans people will ignore health issues related to their biological sex because they often serve as reminders that they were born in the wrong body. The thing is, though, that this happens with cisgender people too. Testicular and prostate cancer isn't as widely discussed and research as breast cancer or other issues that deal with biological female health, so of course that's not going to change with trans people.

 

 - - - 

 

The left's insistence on inclusion and equality has pushed the right even further right, but that's not the left's fault, it's the right's. The right refuses to change with the times and become more accepting of different people. They are choosing to become even more bigoted. You can't blame the left for that. You can't blame oppressed groups of people for how bigots respond to them. That's ridiculous.

[6_INCH_HEELS]

No one can tell a natural born woman how to identify and instead of transwomen coming into OUR world and making changes that benefits them, even though they're very stupid and I really fail to see how changing and replacing certain words and phrases is actually beneficial, they should acclimate appropriately to being the thing they think they are. A woman. If this is who you are, why are so many hellbent on changing words and phrases so they feel included? That just causes separatism and in the end, the overkill of political correctness is going to kill actual progress.

 

It's frustrating, especially as an ally, when you see people doing the MOST solely because they feel that they can. 

[Domination]

Once you get off twitter, this debate doesn’t really exist, that’s all I’ll say. Outside of a doctors office, trans-men aren’t exactly jumping at the chance to be further re-aligned with women.

[*.Digambar.*]

5 minutes ago, 6_INCH_HEELS said:

No one can tell a natural born woman how to identify and instead of transwomen coming into OUR world and making changes that benefits them, even though they're very stupid and I really fail to see how changing and replacing certain words and phrases is actually beneficial, they should acclimate appropriately to being the thing they think they are. A woman. If this is who you are, why are so many hellbent on changing words and phrases so they feel included? That just causes separatism and in the end, the overkill of political correctness is going to kill actual progress.

 

It's frustrating, especially as an ally, when you see people doing the MOST solely because they feel that they can. 

But this has nothing to do with trans women. It's for being inclusive regarding trans men and intersex ppl. And these terms has never replaced the word woman. And these points are usually parroted by terfs and transphobes cause you will rarely see an ally or trans ppl calling women as "menstruator". 

[Simple]

She got a point 

[6_INCH_HEELS]

1 minute ago, *.Digambar.* said:

But this has nothing to do with trans women. It's for being inclusive regarding trans men and intersex ppl. And these terms has never replaced the word woman. And these points are usually parroted by terfs and transphobes cause you will rarely see an ally or trans ppl calling women as "menstruator". 

 

You need to do more research. I've even argued at one point in time for transwomen to be seen how they wanted. But sometimes things go too far. I'm not talking about things I've seen here. There's a far bigger world outside of ATRL. I remember being called a transphobe for saying I wouldn't be interested in dating a trans person who hadn't gone through the complete change. It's the making everyone who doesn't agree with 100% of what they feel transphobes or homophobes that are turning a lot of people off. And while I can never be either of those things, it does suck when people you genuinely want fair and equal treatment for can't see the forest for the trees. But that's a whole other topic.

 

I've seen enough and I stand by what I posted. It's fine if you feel differently.

[Communion]

1 hour ago, Brando said:

Where was that poll conducted? On Grindr? Are you saying one in every 50 people in the US identifies as trans?

This is big MAGA "everything I don't like is fake news!" energy, especially when the source is Pew. 

 

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/06/07/about-5-of-young-adults-in-the-u-s-say-their-gender-is-different-from-their-sex-assigned-at-birth/

 

Also I'm not sure about.your weird tangents in the thread about the estimates about gay men versus lesbians when most figures show that there are more women who experience attraction to women than there are men who experience to men (which kind of shows why pollsters poll how they do and not your weird arbitrary decisions of who should be counted as trans).

[Vespertine]

38 minutes ago, Domination said:

Once you get off twitter, this debate doesn’t really exist, that’s all I’ll say. Outside of a doctors office, trans-men aren’t exactly jumping at the chance to be further re-aligned with women.

!!! 

 

While I do think “birthing people” “people with uteruses” “people who menstruate” etc are mostly terms being pushed as right-wing culture war tactics, it’s hard to deny that a subset of people on Twitter and like have been fooled into thinking these are helpful inclusive terms. Which, to me, is pretty ******* dumb considering I don’t know of any trans people who are begging to be defined by biology. It’s kind of missing the whole point. 

 

I don’t know any trans people who use terms like those, but here’s the problem, as I see it at least: most people likely don’t know any trans people at all, or maybe don’t know if they do. They aren’t particularly plugged in to LGTBQ discourse and terminology (understandably so if it’s not part of their lives). It’s easy to see how people can be misled on a topic they don’t know much about, when media outlets and certain subsets of social media are screaming louder than everyone else. 

[Communion]

2 hours ago, Brando said:

They didn't lie though.

They quite....literally did. They made the empirical claim that the word "woman" was wiped from organizations' websites and yet we can literally see it is still the primary term used consistently throughout. 

 

2 hours ago, Brando said:

to appease a certain woke crowd. 

The woke crowd? You mean doctors? You sound like an anti-vaxxer demonizing medical professionals. 

 

2 hours ago, Brando said:

Identifying trans or non-binary doesn't mean you can get pregnant. There are a ton more men transitioning into trans women and there are a ton more men simply identifying as non-binary than there are actual women who transitioned to become trans men. This debate and my point was exclusively about trans men. According to estimates there's 1 trans man per 100,000 cis gender men. That's around 1,5k 

Literally none of what you're saying is true and it veers into weird TERF-y rhetoric about trans women. You're, for some reason, using figures that are not only outdated but also global. There are going to be more LGBT people captured by polls in countries where being LGBT is accepted than not. 

 

Even conservative numbers place the split between AFAB trans people and AMAB trans people as close. This study is for those 13+ instead of just 18+ but shows the same:

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/

 

The split between trans men and women is 52% trans women vs 48% trans men. And even if you then, for some reason, assumed that EVERY SINGLE NONBINARY* person was AMAB, making it 65% trans women vs 35% trans men, that's still an estimated total of 480,000 trans men in the US. 

 

Surveys quite literally place the realistic number of trans men in the US at a total that is 320x greater than what you claim. 

 

That you are such a reactionary that you can honestly sit here and with a straight face claim you think less than 2000 trans men exist in ALL of the US shows you need to stop worrying about math or language or words and get some common sense. 

 

*- The irony being that one of the most common insults to nonbinary people to invalidate them is the claim that nonbinary people are disproportionately AFAB and are "just cis women trying to feel special". There's no satisfying you people. You claim AMAB trans people are the majority to invalidate trans people and then claim AFAB trans people are the majority to invalidate trans people. It sounds like the goal is just to invalidate trans people. 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Communion

[Eric.]

Lmfao. Is this a psy-op? 

 

The people taking away women's rights and bodily autonomy never use those terms anyway. 

 

Did the 5 MEN who overturned Roe use any of those terms in their ruling? No. Can you find these terms on any Republican/conservative policy proposal restricting women's rights? No!

This isn't even missing the forest for the trees, she's not even looking at the trees! 

Also those terms are not a replacement for the word "woman" nor are they an identity marker. They simply represent the totality of people who share a particular experience based on specific characteristics. Just as it's done with terms like "men who have sex with men" or "sperm donor." 

 

Is the word "woman" the most politically convenient to encompass all of the people (regardless of identity) who are AFAB and could potentially be affected by restrictions of their reproductive rights? Yes, but there's no need to be a jerk when other people use other terms they feel most confortable with regarding this conversation. 

[Erreur2 La Nature]

There isn't anything transphobic at all about her tweet. Wtf is this troll thread and why is it still open ?

[applestar]

2 hours ago, GraceRandolph said:

10 year olds are being forced to carry their fertilized-by-rape eggs over state lines due to the overturn of Roe. Trust me, most rational voters won’t give a **** about transes when these events become more common place and their wives or daughters are forced to carry babies. What slanted worldview are you coming from? Not everyone cares that much about transgender rights, and more and more Americans are coming to understand trans people. 

I hope you're right, but I'm almost certain the right will win in the 2022 midterms. America isn't rational. People largely still celebrated the 4th of July like nothing had happened, despite the overturn of a 50 year precedent that will cause death, destroy lives, and break homes + they still celebrated after the parade shooting, and nobody cares about 01/06

 

It's true that lot of people don't care that much about trans people (although I do hear Lia Thomas references a lot from conservatives), but do care about identity politics as it pertains to media (hence the Elon Musk fanboys retweeting that Netflix wokeism is ruining society, people saying all movies suck nowadays and "comedy is ruined"). And conservatives truly do think that electing conservative politicians gives a middle finger to PC culture

 

I think, unfortunately, the debate over using birthing people vs women doesn't really matter. It's just liberal infighting, and the conservatives will just run with the least charitable narrative

 

tldr; The two things that are going to make a red wave in 2022 are inflation (which can't be helped because COVID + war) and the continuation of the PC culture war that we've been having since 2015. this debate doesn't really matter because our rights are already doomed

[Zayka]

People are getting upset about literally anything nowadays. get a job. She said nothing wrong.

[Headlock]

That person claiming there are only 1.5k trans men in the US 

[Kamil24]

why not just say "biological women that give birth/menstruate"? That would be accurate and inclusive of all.

[Headlock]

6 hours ago, ConceptD said:

As a cis white male who could probably pass as straight if I really wanted to, I probably shouldn’t have an opinion here and I fully 100% support trans people but this is a topic with layers and it does seem like women are being erased. There’s not a single trans woman that I know who refers to biological women as ‘birthers’ or anything of that kind and they’re not these sheltered people that don’t understand certain facts of life like trans women not being able to menstruate and stuff. Honestly the trans people I know personally are some of the strongest, most level headed people in my life who hate the fact that they’re all being painted as these outrageous delusionists that don’t live inside of reality. They are women and they live as such, but as women they don’t want to take away urgency from other women and are fully accepting that they have a different path. All of this nonsense about ‘birthing people/menstruators’ etc is doing more harm to them than good because it’s too confusing for people and the real scary thing is that all the progress trans people made a couple of years ago is being undone by radicalists who feed right into the hands of the terfs. 

The way you almost get it 

It's almost as if these are all right-wing talking points hijacking medical terminology used amongst physicians and reproductive rights advocates and pinning it on trans people who don't give a ****. Furthermore, trans women have nothing to do with this, it's trans men who fall into the reproductive category.

 

Women's right's are indeed being erased, by cis men 

[fountain]

No points were made, senile and taking anger out on the wrong people. 

[Headlock]

13 hours ago, awesomepossum said:

Hey I'm just trying to do my part to support trans rights by calling out those transphobic organizations you linked in your post. I'm out here on the front lines doing the work. Don't come for me 

You really are pwning all of us huh 

[305]

15 hours ago, Sugar-Rush said:

She made a point though. The term "birthing people" is so extra, and nobody uses it outside of the internet. It's like the term "Latinx", which was invented by White SJWs on Twitter, and most Latinos refuse to use it in real life.

I'm not referring to anyone who is capable of being pregnant as a "birthing person" or "person with a ******."

Transwomen and cis women can still be referred to as women without having to blur the terms

[Theshigo Washidu]

She's right.

[nadiamendell]

Bette is clearly buying into right-wing rhetoric about something that literally isn't an issue. There might be some crazies out there calling for women to be referred to as "people that birth" or whatever but these people are few and far between. The right-wingers are taking these comments and using them to divide the left and causing infighting among us all, which is literally why we never get anything accomplished.