applestar Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 At this point, it doesn't really matter if the left uses women or birthing people, because they've already lost on this issue and many others. The left virtually can't win a debate with the right on abortion, because they'll just pivot to, "You can't even define what a woman is." Thanks to this, now contraception, gay marriage, and many more rights determined by the Roe precedent will be taken away. People will also die as a result of the Roe overturn Policing language is a losing battle for anyone, and obviously we've seen the effects of that in 2016, 2018, and probably in 2022 & 2024 as well.
bunnyeyes Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 (edited) Avoided posting in here because people can’t genuinely conceive that these things aren’t said in a vacuum and are tied to weird transphobic rhetoric. Nobody is not using women anymore… the medical community has started to use inclusive language to also include people who may also be affected by pregnancy such as trans men but no one offline / day to day trans person cares what you use irl. In fact we’re most of us agree that defining womanhood by reproductive capabilities is disgusting. We just want to be left alone and not killed. It’s a right wing bs talking point. Edited July 5, 2022 by IvyTower
FOCK Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 “Trans women are women” has been severely misconstrued. It’s not a slogan intended to be weaponised to attack biological women or impede on their comfort and liberties, which the right has been successful at bastardising & peddling - which in turn is triggering more radical reaction from the left, in a never ending and futile argument, at the expense of those actually caught in the crossfire who just wants to live their lives in peace & dignity. This exchange is giving rise to stupid arguments like “you can’t change your sex!”… yeah, no ****. Trans women are completely aware that they’re trans, and they face their own biological realities everyday, they don’t need to be reminded. The term is supposed to be used to express that they should be respected as the gender they identify with. It’s not to “take away” from women or anyone else.
Communion Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 23 minutes ago, applestar said: the left virtually can't win a debate What do debates have to do with politics? The right won the ability to overturn Roe v Wade due to millions in dark money funneled into winning state legislatures for a GOP takeover that Dems dismissed to their dismay in 2016. The Supreme Court has power because rich billionaires want tax breaks and fueling racial resentment is the best way to mobilize the current fragments of the Republican party. Do you think SCOTUS got decided because progressives decided to ask people what their pronouns were instead of assuming? Y'all don't live in the real world.
Mr. Blue_Shirt Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 4 hours ago, Mast said: TRLA gays being right-wing and reactionary yet again, aligning themselves with Republican talking points and then wondering why the U.S. keeps going to ****. Can't say I'm surprised. Y'all keep talking about "the left" when you ant even define what that means to y'all (hint, that's a term that conservatives have hijacked to refer to any ideology that's socially progressive). Y'all also keep overreacting like people are calling women "menstruators" to their face on a daily basis, which is not the case. Terms like "people who menstruate," "people who birth," etc are used specifically on the context of reproductive rights because THOSE ARE RIGHTS THAT CONCERN MORE THAN JUST CIS WOMEN. It really costs nothing to acknowledge that trans people exist. They are medically accurate terms. No one is forcing y'all to stop calling cis women "women," but we are asking that we are intentional and accurate as to what reproductive rights encompasses. No one is erasing women for fucks sake. if anything, the focus on language over, idk, the actual abolition of access to safe abortions is literally scapegoating the actual issue and the actual bad actors at hand, which are right-wingers who are currently in turbo mode trying to infuse our laws with their religious ideology when government and church are supposed to be separate. Liberals will be the end of us because y'all love to feign being progressive and at the end of the day adopt right-wing talking points such as the ones in this entire thread. Y'all make me sick, genuinely. How many times have y'all heard someone say "oh, they're a person who births" on casual day to day conversations? The answer is ******* never. Is is literally used 99.99% of the time in the context of reproductive rights only. And y'all are the same people who then go on to say that people "on the left" have fake outrage.
CandleGuy Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 15 minutes ago, Communion said: What do debates have to do with politics? The right won the ability to overturn Roe v Wade due to millions in dark money funneled into winning state legislatures for a GOP takeover that Dems dismissed to their dismay in 2016. The Supreme Court has power because rich billionaires want tax breaks and fueling racial resentment is the best way to mobilize the current fragments of the Republican party. Do you think SCOTUS got decided because progressives decided to ask people what their pronouns were instead of assuming? Y'all don't live in the real world. That's exactly what happened. An overextension of political correctness and - I hate this ******* term - but "wokeness", led hundreds of millions of people to rally around Trump and the alt-right movement. Trump's rise to power and presidency gave us the current version of SCOTUS, who are now actively working to undo the last 70 years of progress in the US. Now we have a thread full of people trashing a long time celebrated liberal activist because she had the audacity to want to be called a woman and not a birthing person. Talk about not living in the real world.
ATRL Moderator madonnas Posted July 5, 2022 ATRL Moderator Posted July 5, 2022 Idk. I wouldn’t say the tweet is JKR level but it’s super suspicious. “birthing bodies” and “birthing persons” and language like that is just so weird to me. I get gender inclusive language and all that but it just sounds so dehumanizing and I think a lot of women feel like they are being reduced to their biology by terms like that. Don’t get me wrong I fully support gender inclusive language but like I can definitely see why a lot of cis women don’t like the term. There are frankly better gender neutral terms. Plus, saying abortion is a womens issue isn’t transphobic. It’s true. Most people affected by it are women, but trans men shouldn’t be forgotten and erased from that that being said I’m soooo sick of the narrative that people want progress and then woke non-binary & trans people came around and ruined progress for everyone. Like y’all dont actual believe that bunch of crap? Do you?
Patient Zero Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 (edited) This is the reason why conservatives are winning. Liberals are fighting with each other over the most stupid **** when there’s no reason to fight… Bette Midler has been very liberal and supporting the good cause since day one.And now she gets attacked because some internet losers think she’s offending someone. Edited July 5, 2022 by Patient Zero
Communion Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 (edited) 13 minutes ago, CandleGuy said: That's exactly what happened. I don't think you'll wanna tell anyone in real life your theory that a few thousand black factory workers stayed home in 2016 in southern Wisconsin despite voting for Obama in 2012 because people used uhhh pronouns. There's literally no quantifiable data to prove your hunch. You just have "the vibes" that somehow it's trans people's fault. Edited July 5, 2022 by Communion
applestar Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 51 minutes ago, Communion said: What do debates have to do with politics? The right won the ability to overturn Roe v Wade due to millions in dark money funneled into winning state legislatures for a GOP takeover that Dems dismissed to their dismay in 2016. The Supreme Court has power because rich billionaires want tax breaks and fueling racial resentment is the best way to mobilize the current fragments of the Republican party. Do you think SCOTUS got decided because progressives decided to ask people what their pronouns were instead of assuming? Y'all don't live in the real world. Yeah, you're definitely ignoring the internet pipeline of alt-rightism (SJW cringe compilations, rise of right-wing YouTube and Podcasters) which is why you don't understand why multiple rights are being taken away Roe was removed thanks to the disastrous Trump appointments, and Trump won in 2016 because of PC culture. If he runs in 2024, he can definitely win again, because Biden only won because of COVID. Most people DNGAF about 01/06 or COVID now; they care about inflation, cancel culture, and f*cking Lia Thomas (at least that's what I hear about every day)
Joesuxx Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 She has a point. They have taken the word women out of menopause guidance in my country. I don't understand why trans women and trans supporters are so vocal on this issue. The menopause is a "woman's issue". If it's not then who else does it affect? We don't have these conversations about trans men and the language applicable to testicular or prostate cancer. Women in that sense do feel marginalised. Women of a certain age feel as if oh look here's us being silenced further. When these women have protests in the street that their womanhood exists trans women have assaulted them in the street for denying their womanhood and then posted the footage on twitter as if it were an achievement. The first thing about being a woman is being there for the sisterhood and making sure their healthcare and rights are accessible. You can be an ally for the trans community and an advocate for women and their existence too.
Lucas32 Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 (edited) This type of language is only used by some medical campaigns (since you know, trans men may also need their information) and some explicitly trans-affirmative organisations or activists etc. Does she think she can‘t call herself a woman anymore? Will never get why some people have such a knee-jerk reaction about inclusive language. Edited July 5, 2022 by Lucas32
ConceptD Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 As a cis white male who could probably pass as straight if I really wanted to, I probably shouldn’t have an opinion here and I fully 100% support trans people but this is a topic with layers and it does seem like women are being erased. There’s not a single trans woman that I know who refers to biological women as ‘birthers’ or anything of that kind and they’re not these sheltered people that don’t understand certain facts of life like trans women not being able to menstruate and stuff. Honestly the trans people I know personally are some of the strongest, most level headed people in my life who hate the fact that they’re all being painted as these outrageous delusionists that don’t live inside of reality. They are women and they live as such, but as women they don’t want to take away urgency from other women and are fully accepting that they have a different path. All of this nonsense about ‘birthing people/menstruators’ etc is doing more harm to them than good because it’s too confusing for people and the real scary thing is that all the progress trans people made a couple of years ago is being undone by radicalists who feed right into the hands of the terfs.
Mr. Blue_Shirt Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 1 hour ago, CandleGuy said: That's exactly what happened. An overextension of political correctness and - I hate this ******* term - but "wokeness", led hundreds of millions of people to rally around Trump and the alt-right movement. Trump's rise to power and presidency gave us the current version of SCOTUS, who are now actively working to undo the last 70 years of progress in the US. Now we have a thread full of people trashing a long time celebrated liberal activist because she had the audacity to want to be called a woman and not a birthing person. Talk about not living in the real world. "You know, i decided to vote for Trump and changed all of my beliefs about the economy, social issues, systemic racism, health care, history because the left want to use inclusive language" Yeah, that's how the real world works
ConceptD Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 16 minutes ago, Joesuxx said: She has a point. They have taken the word women out of menopause guidance in my country. I don't understand why trans women and trans supporters are so vocal on this issue. The menopause is a "woman's issue". If it's not then who else does it affect? We don't have these conversations about trans men and the language applicable to testicular or prostate cancer. Women in that sense do feel marginalised. Women of a certain age feel as if oh look here's us being silenced further. When these women have protests in the street that their womanhood exists trans women have assaulted them in the street for denying their womanhood and then posted the footage on twitter as if it were an achievement. The first thing about being a woman is being there for the sisterhood and making sure their healthcare and rights are accessible. You can be an ally for the trans community and an advocate for women and their existence too. I think what you’ll find, similarly to when white people adopt clothing from different cultures, is that the people affected themselves (in this case trans women) are the ones least bothered by it. My friends are just trying to get by without getting attacked in the streets and it has been 1000000 times harder for them since all of this nonsense started because there’s a real hostility towards them now thanks to people that aren’t even trans taking it upon themselves to tell them how they should feel.
its_britney_bitch Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 That’s not offensive. Having your gender defined by your sex organs is offensive. Imagine if men were called “ejaculators”
cypriotpcdfan Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 I'm still trying to figure out which part of what she said is problematic. Calling this tweet transphobic is very misogynistic. So, who do we go after?
The7thStranger Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 Feels more like J. Lo’s inadvertent blunder than J.K.’s intentional transphobia.
Suilen Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 Still baffling to me how inclusive words which are used in limited settings cause such an uproar. Trans panic is real and people are buying into it.
Sesame Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 Y’all are still in here? Did she ever even clarify? Because it sounds like she’s talking about how republicans are turning into the handmaids tale where women’s only purpose is giving birth
Joesuxx Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 1 hour ago, ConceptD said: I think what you’ll find, similarly to when white people adopt clothing from different cultures, is that the people affected themselves (in this case trans women) are the ones least bothered by it. My friends are just trying to get by without getting attacked in the streets and it has been 1000000 times harder for them since all of this nonsense started because there’s a real hostility towards them now thanks to people that aren’t even trans taking it upon themselves to tell them how they should feel. For sure. Like I am at the point now where i find the entire situation overwhelming. I don't want to engage in the conversation because it's almost extremist. Your gender and your biology are not necessarily defining characteristics of one another. But the vehement anger from both sides of the fence is making me not want to know, and i think a lot of people in our age demographics almost feels the same. For instance the trans woman that battered a biological woman the other week outside parliament had a clear physical advantage and in any other aspect of life people would be appalled by a woman being attacked by someone who physically resembles a male (see the Johnny Depp scenario) etc. Women should be able to stand in the street and say they feel as if they don't matter without being punched. Given that half of us here spend half our life obsessing over women and commenting on their bodies etc we should really be more open when women themselves say they feel erased. They've felt that way for centuries and we go forwards and backwards. I fully recognise and respect trans women as women but i also recognise the urgency for women to be viewed and treated as such. The lines do not become this blurred in the case of trans men, so people need to stop telling women that they are now not women due to trans inclusivity. The situation has been completely irrationalise-d and it creates TERF's. JK Rowling said similar things to the majority of this thread in the first instance and the appalling abuse she received has made her double down and dig harder. That's what being extremist about your view does to some people and i think if people had heard what she said as a woman about language then she wouldn't of gone off looking. The tone needs to change to be educational. Having worked in healthcare and with trans people there needs to be clear differential guidelines on gender and "biological/physical/birth" gender so that care plans are adequate for the delivery of both physical and emotional care. That's to protect trans people as much as it is non-trans people. The lines are so blurred and instead of bettering that and educating trans people on why the differences are imperative to their welfare and survival in medical institutions, we're arguing about what makes others.
Wikipedia Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 Birthing bodies and people with vaginas aren't very good gender neutral terms but medical language is meant to be inclusive. Trans men and non binary people can also get pregnant. The term woman is still being used when discussing reproductive rights. Don't see what all the outrage is about.
Brando Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 9 hours ago, Communion said: Again, this is demonstratively false. You are spreading far-right propaganda. https://www.aclu.org/issues/reproductive-freedom/abortion https://www.prochoiceamerica.org/issue/abortion-access/ https://www.plannedparenthood.org/get-care/our-services/womens-services It is one thing to be sensitive to why cis women from a previous generation may be uncomfortable with certain, newer medicalized language. It is another to lie and be dishonest. The inclusion of new language is not the removal of previous language. You are quite literally lying that the term "woman" has been removed from these orgs. Take your complaint with the Atlantic. They didn't lie though. Those organisations did make the changes to appease a certain woke crowd. 9 hours ago, Communion said: ???????? Current polls show that just around 2% of adults identify as trans or non-binary. That would mean there are roughly 4M trans adult in the US.. not 1,500?? Do you honestly think there are less than 2,000 trans men in the US?? Unhinged posts about "the far left" and you're saying... this?? Identifying trans or non-binary doesn't mean you can get pregnant. There are a ton more men transitioning into trans women and there are a ton more men simply identifying as non-binary than there are actual women who transitioned to become trans men. This debate and my point was exclusively about trans men. According to estimates there's 1 trans man per 100,000 cis gender men. That's around 1,5k for the entire United States (or 0,0008% of people who can give birth) per my quick calculation. Feel free to come up with your own math.
Brando Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 9 hours ago, Communion said: Current polls show that just around 2% of adults identify as trans or non-binary. Where was that poll conducted? On Grindr? Are you saying one in every 50 people in the US identifies as trans? And what percentage of the population identifies as gay/lesbian? Obvious trans people only make a small proportion of the LGBT population. Oh ye, and once you include bi people? We're probably looking at a majority of the population already?
GraceRandolph Posted July 5, 2022 Posted July 5, 2022 4 hours ago, applestar said: Yeah, you're definitely ignoring the internet pipeline of alt-rightism (SJW cringe compilations, rise of right-wing YouTube and Podcasters) which is why you don't understand why multiple rights are being taken away Roe was removed thanks to the disastrous Trump appointments, and Trump won in 2016 because of PC culture. If he runs in 2024, he can definitely win again, because Biden only won because of COVID. Most people DNGAF about 01/06 or COVID now; they care about inflation, cancel culture, and f*cking Lia Thomas (at least that's what I hear about every day) Nnnnn. You need to provide more proof. There are a lot of factors that led to Trump winning in 2016, and PC culture was only one factor. You are also blaming trans people and others for their own oppression. I’m sorry, but I don’t think that we as LGBT people can act differently and actually change how GOPers feel about us. Bigotry is not logical, it reacts to movements of equality and is largely based on fear and misunderstanding as opposed to PC culture. And I doubt people will vote Republican because of Lia Thomas, who most people are not aware of. Trust me, culture war issues are a big part of politics, but the Roe v Wade debate and gun safety debate will also be disastrous for Republicans as mass shootings become more common and women begin to face the realities of a post-Roe world.
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