DAP Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 Since Susan Sarandon is the most powerful congressional person, maybe she can use her powers to prosecute Killary for war crimes
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted June 25, 2022 ATRL Moderator Posted June 25, 2022 To the people continually blaming Bernie and progressives for today, let's not pretend like y'all wouldn't be saying electing Biden would have prevented today in the event Trump had won in 2020. As a former Hillary Hen from 2016 (as many of the Bernie supporters can attest to), I am so sick and tired of debating the 2016 primary. It's done. Let it go. Let's focus on what we're going to do tomorrow.
Vermillion Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 While I do have individual issues with some in Crooked Media, this podcast episode was brilliant, imho (as a progressive disillusioned with everyone at the moment). Long, but worth people's time if they have the patience, imho. Even for me that isn't a lawyer or even close.
i spit on haters Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 I swear I low-key start feeling like swinging on niggas who shifts blame on me and other leftists for every thing wrong with the political landscape. I take a great deal of umbrage to that. Not only is it inaccurate but it's disrespectful as ****. Especially when it comes from a neoliberal.
DAP Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 40 minutes ago, hurricane326 said: This message translated from progressive "third party" voter ----> reality: Dear Democrats, women, POC, LGBTQ+, It's YOUR fault for having your rights take away. You voted for Hillary, Biden, and other Democrats. Shame on you! You should've voted for Jill Stein or Howie Hawkins so your vote would've been wasted! Well that’s definitely a translation alright, the type of translation in failed graded assignments you put in Google translate because you don’t have the skills to do it from memory.
Cruel Summer Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 10 minutes ago, Bloo said: To the people continually blaming Bernie and progressives for today, let's not pretend like y'all wouldn't be saying electing Biden would have prevented today in the event Trump had won in 2020. As a former Hillary Hen from 2016 (as many of the Bernie supporters can attest to), I am so sick and tired of debating the 2016 primary. It's done. Let it go. Let's focus on what we're going to do tomorrow. I honestly worry that we’re cursed to never be able to move on or learn from 2016 because people refuse to see the even part of the truth. That we’ll never learn the right lessons, I guess, and that it will always come back to this same “who’s fault is it?” thing. Every time anything significant happens in politics that isn’t positive, the very first reactions are “well this is the Bernie Bros’ fault, obviously.” I can barely imagine a political discourse where we don’t have to navigate through that discussion until we’re all blue in the face and still disagree anyway.
Beyonnaise Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 It’s annoying when people say “this is the most important election of our lifetimes” every year but the 2016 election truly was, like it completely changed the course of history for the worse America peaked around 2013-2015, the economy was good and it actually felt like we were making social progress (there were still obv problems like police brutality but in general things were much better)
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted June 25, 2022 ATRL Moderator Posted June 25, 2022 1 minute ago, Cruel Summer said: I honestly worry that we’re cursed to never be able to move on or learn from 2016 because people refuse to see the even part of the truth. That we’ll never learn the right lessons, I guess, and that it will always come back to this same “who’s fault is it?” thing. Every time anything significant happens in politics that isn’t positive, the very first reactions are “well this is the Bernie Bros’ fault, obviously.” I can barely imagine a political discourse where we don’t have to navigate through that discussion until we’re all blue in the face and still disagree anyway. While this is true. I frankly don't think people obsessively crying about an 80 year old man that had a heart attack and has shown little interest in ever running again are that serious. They're gonna vote blue no matter who. I kind of think people that want to cry about that nonstop would best be ignored. The average person is not obsessed with this issue. It's only partisan Democratic voters. Like an extended argument is just unneeded at this point even though it is frustrating that some seem completely disinterested in moving on and focusing on next steps.
i spit on haters Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 13 minutes ago, Espresso said: While I do have individual issues with some in Crooked Media, this podcast episode was brilliant, imho (as a progressive disillusioned with everyone at the moment). Long, but worth people's time if they have the patience, imho. Even for me that isn't a lawyer or even close. I'll add this to my 'watch later'. Thanx!
Cruel Summer Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 Just now, Bloo said: While this is true. I frankly don't think people obsessively crying about an 80 year old man that had a heart attack and has shown little interest in ever running again are that serious. They're gonna vote blue no matter who. I kind of think people that want to cry about that nonstop would best be ignored. The average person is not obsessed with this issue. It's only partisan Democratic voters. Like an extended argument is just unneeded at this point even though it is frustrating that some seem completely disinterested in moving on and focusing on next steps. No, yeah, I totally get your point with that. I see what you mean and I agree with that - the vast majority of people don’t care who or why compared to what we can do next, and anyone on either side of the argument who refuses to move on when confronted with information that challenged their world view is perhaps willingly leaving themselves out of the real conversation, the one about where to go.
Guest Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 36 minutes ago, Communion said: Some please stop Susan Sarandon from causing all of this already, for the love of god!!!!
Vermillion Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 7 minutes ago, i spit on haters said: I'll add this to my 'watch later'. Thanx! Sure
Communion Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Bloo said: While this is true. I frankly don't think people obsessively crying about an 80 year old man that had a heart attack and has shown little interest in ever running again are that serious. They're gonna vote blue no matter who. I kind of think people that want to cry about that nonstop would best be ignored. The average person is not obsessed with this issue. It's only partisan Democratic voters. Like an extended argument is just unneeded at this point even though it is frustrating that some seem completely disinterested in moving on and focusing on next steps. My one note of concern is that such are like... a disproportional amount of corporate media in and of itself. Most people do not care about very partisan Democratic focuses yet those views still dominate airwaves and can easily undo progressive movements forward when you have rich weirdos on CNN and MSNBC churning out a 24/7/365 claim that there exists some abstract independent voter who can only be won by further and further right Dems. Most people who could lean Democrat when voting say when polled say they don't think the policies (that we, as highly political viewers know as neoliberal) are helpful to society and that that the policies they like most are the ones that we, again, as highly politically-driven people can recognize as progressive, even if (importantly) those polled don't use these words themselves. And yet the same polls show most people say that they then guess they can give up getting what they want to block something they fear (only for the number who stay home every 4 years to grow more). I think this conversation happens - because I don't think it's really a conversation where people genuinely believe their claims that somehow Green Party voters or Susan Sarandon were at fault and are instead coping with the reality that they were wrong - because there is essentially still a power struggle within the Democratic Party. And that the idea of electoral politics as main avenue for change will always be contentious when the ends of what the people want (progressive policy) is at odds with what those within the leadership roles itself want (power and money). Edited June 25, 2022 by Communion
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted June 25, 2022 ATRL Moderator Posted June 25, 2022 8 minutes ago, Communion said: My one note of concern is that such are like... a disproportional amount of corporate media in and of itself. Most people do not care about very partisan Democratic focuses yet those views still dominate airwaves and can easily undo progressive movements forward when you have rich weirdos on CNN and MSNBC churning out a 24/7/365 claim that there exists some abstract independent voter who can only be won by further and further right Dems. Most people who could lean Democrat when voting say when polled say they don't think the policies (that we, as highly political viewers know as neoliberal) are helpful to society and that that the policies they like most are the ones that we, again, as highly politically-driven people can recognize as progressive, even if (importantly) those polled don't use these words themselves. And yet the same polls show most people say that they then guess they can give up getting what they want to block something they fear (only for the number who stay home every 4 years to grow more). I think this conversation happens - because I don't think it's really a conversation where people genuinely believe their claims that somehow Green Party voters or Susan Sarandon were at fault and are instead coping with the reality that they were wrong - because there is essentially still a power struggle within the Democratic Party. And that the idea of electoral politics as main avenue for change will always be contentious when the ends of what the people want (progressive policy) is at odds with what those within the leadership roles itself want (power and money). The way the corporate media frames issues is definitely a problem. But I think we can also come up with better strategies to push back on it. First, confirm the reality that centrist Democrats have failed. Biden promised he could reach across the aisle to pass a robust agenda and he failed. The bipartisan school of thought fails. I think we need a simple and short message that instead focuses on centrist Democrats' collective failures at doing anything rather than contesting a 2016 election and the hypothetical scenario of what would have been if Hillary were elected or campaigned in Michigan. It's just a weak vantage point in general. I think there's a lot of anger and I think more anger than normal from more normie Democrats that we can appeal to if we focus on failed promises made by centrists as opposed to debating the 2016 election. If we just roll our eyes and say we need to focus on winning the next election instead of staying stuck in the past, I think that might be the best path forward.
saucy Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 the french had a good idea bringing out the guillotine. peaceful protests and voting will not do anything.
Mariah4life Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 Banning abortion Trying to ban Drag story time Love their guns i hate white republican men so much.
Communion Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 10 minutes ago, Bloo said: The way the corporate media frames issues is definitely a problem. But I think we can also come up with better strategies to push back on it. First, confirm the reality that centrist Democrats have failed. Biden promised he could reach across the aisle to pass a robust agenda and he failed. The bipartisan school of thought fails. I think we need a simple and short message that instead focuses on centrist Democrats' collective failures at doing anything rather than contesting a 2016 election and the hypothetical scenario of what would have been if Hillary were elected or campaigned in Michigan. It's just a weak vantage point in general. I think there's a lot of anger and I think more anger than normal from more normie Democrats that we can appeal to if we focus on failed promises made by centrists as opposed to debating the 2016 election. If we just roll our eyes and say we need to focus on winning the next election instead of staying stuck in the past, I think that might be the best path forward. My only note is just that I think part of the conversation is also about the right to not want to have to push back on it anymore and move away from entertaining the idea that electoralism works. There's a conversation about what electoral strategies that work, but then also, when so often centrists lash out, a conversation about the morality of non-voters, that as you said is probably not worth our time, but which often we find ourselves in as we understand that centrists' views are not just ineffective, but also morally reprehensible when they attack others for their failures. I've found though, in the natural ebb and flow of things though, that Biden's historic failures to even just meet what he's promised to do attached to how capable the government showed us it could be when forced to under the pandemic has done much of the heavy-lifting for us. I said it before - centrism is out-dated. .Look at Biden's horrible approvals. He is in the tank due to most Dems unhappy with him, simply because most of the people who Dems claim as their base are progressives, not ~centrist~. I think centrists so often want to re-litigate 2016 because they can't own up to the fact that they got their way in both 2016 and 2020 and have only hurt the average American with their ideas about what a Democratic Party should be and believe in.
Rage Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 Proud to have been a part of this march. Please speak up and get active LOCALLY!!!
Sergi91 Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 1 hour ago, i spit on haters said: lol, this 3rd grade level rebuttal. Go to bed. Take your own advice and be gone.
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted June 25, 2022 ATRL Moderator Posted June 25, 2022 3 minutes ago, Communion said: My only note is just that I think part of the conversation is also about the right to not want to have to push back on it anymore and move away from entertaining the idea that electoralism works. There's a conversation about what electoral strategies that work, but then also, when so often centrists lash out, a conversation about the morality of non-voters, that as you said is probably not worth our time, but which often we find ourselves in as we understand that centrists' views are not just ineffective, but also morally reprehensible when they attack others for their failures. I've found though, in the natural ebb and flow of things though, that Biden's historic failures to even just meet what he's promised to do attached to how capable the government showed us it could be when forced to under the pandemic has done much of the heavy-lifting for us. I said it before - centrism is out-dated. .Look at Biden's horrible approvals. He is in the tank due to most Dems unhappy with him, simply because most of the people who Dems claim as their base are progressives, not ~centrist~. I think centrists so often want to re-litigate 2016 because they can't own up to the fact that they got their way in both 2016 and 2020 and have only hurt the average American with their ideas about what a Democratic Party should be and believe in. I agree with you here but I think the conversation you're referring to is a bit different to what I mean. Many of the benign arguments of, "Thanks Bernie or Busters!!" ad nauseam are just a waste of time in general. I think there's a very real criticism of relying solely on electoralism to enact change and have been vocally voicing that on ATRL and outside of it. Succinctly, I'd like to see us move towards massive organized boycotts and/or generalized strikes. But I think that's a different discussion than the basic and elementary screaming about "Bernie or Busters". I think those people should be ignored at this point. I agree with you here as well. Biden's disapproval is due to unhappy Democrats. But, I think a better way to view Democratic voters is as partisan and non-partisan. The vast majority of Democrats want progressive policies, so categorizing Dem voters as progressive and centrist/conservative is not that informative. Instead, I find the split in Democratic voters is more so along the lines of whether they view the Democratic Party as a vehicle for achieving progressive change or as an obstacle. People who tend to view the party as a vehicle for progressive change usually are more centrist, not because they hate the idea of universal healthcare or a higher minimum wage, but because they take Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden at their word when they say there's no way M4A can pass but that we can pass a public option. The Democratic voters that view Nancy and Biden (and the party as a whole) as an obstacle, think this is bulls**t. But, I think more and more Democrats are making the transition from Partisan to Non-Partisan now. Anecdotally speaking, my aunt who is a lifelong Democrat who loved Nancy Pelosi has recently unsubscribed from her mailing list and has sword to not donate money to them anymore. It's precisely because she's seen too much failure. I hope this transition is real and tangible and not just something I'm imagining in the ether.
ClashAndBurn Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 1 hour ago, i spit on haters said: I swear I low-key start feeling like swinging on niggas who shifts blame on me and other leftists for every thing wrong with the political landscape. I take a great deal of umbrage to that. Not only is it inaccurate but it's disrespectful as ****. Especially when it comes from a neoliberal. Especially when they blanket blame progressives across every state and every circumstance when… for me personally, my state went to Trump by 5% in 2016. My vote didn’t make a difference. If I hadn’t voted for her, the margin would have still been 5%. Voter shaming in general is wrong, but it’s funny how they never go for the black Obama voters who stayed home in Milwaukee, Detroit, and Philadelphia.
lostcause Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 I’m just sad. My mother was 16 when roe was decided. Basically since she was old enough to be pregnant, her rights were protected. Now those same rights have been stripped from her 23 year old daughter. I can’t imagine what it must feel like to witness such regression. I don’t want to live in a country where Women’s autonomy is based on the state they call home. I don’t want to live in a country in which womens value is legally demarcated as their ability to replenish the workforce. I’m tired and I want out.
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