discussion Buffy the Vampire Slayer + Angel (aka Buffyverse)

[WaterDiamonds]

29 minutes ago, NoAngelus said:

I'll wait for others to post to understand better what you mean 

 

Honestly i love Angel equally from s2 till the end, and i loved most stand alone episodes in S1.

 

You'll see recurring characters from Buffy in S2 and S3 and most will say that was highlight of the show.

Sometimes I think S5 is the peak of the show, it was the biggest reinvention in television history, critics praised it so much at the time and it was top rated season of the show. So it ended on a high. Everyone agrees it had better ending than Buffy.  

And while watching S4 I thought it was the best thing ever until something happened.

And sometimes I think S3 was the peak of the show before something happened that changed the dynamics between characters of the show until the very end. 

And sometimes I think of ideas that were introduced in S2 and3 episodes arc in other universe and I wish we got to see more of that. 

 

Angel doesn't have obvious stand alone episodes like Buffy that you see fans name outside of first Buffy episode in S1 and 100th episode. But it was more cohesive show.

 

 

 

 

"Everyone agrees it had better ending than Buffy." not hard to considering how rushed the Buffy last season was 

 

Okay so basically Angel has no "Monster of the week" type of episodes and it's more plot driven than Buffy, am I getting it right?

 

Going to watch some more episodes rn

[NoAngelus]

7 minutes ago, WaterDiamonds said:

"Everyone agrees it had better ending than Buffy." not hard to considering how rushed the Buffy last season was 

 

Okay so basically Angel has no "Monster of the week" type of episodes and it's more plot driven than Buffy, am I getting it right?

 

Going to watch some more episodes rn

Not just season, but last episode too. Honestly I don't think Buffy's last season/episode were rushed, I liked them and I don't understand universal hate among fanbase. 

 

Hmm not necessary, there are monsters of the week episodes, but they are not highlights like they are in Buffy. When I think of Angel I don't single out episodes, I always think of whole show. For example last 7-8 episodes of S5 are like all back to back slayage episodes, but I can't think of the plot now because they were all building up to something. 

And when it's plot heavy it's really plot heavy. I can't wait to see your reaction in S4 where 15 episodes are all connected 

 It's been 7 years since my last re-watch and I'm starting again on Monday.

 

What episodes are next for you? 

[WaterDiamonds]

12 minutes ago, NoAngelus said:

Not just season, but last episode too. Honestly I don't think Buffy's last season/episode were rushed, I liked them and I don't understand universal hate among fanbase. 

 

Hmm not necessary, there are monsters of the week episodes, but they are not highlights like they are in Buffy. When I think of Angel I don't single out episodes, I always think of whole show. For example last 7-8 episodes of S5 are like all back to back slayage episodes, but I can't think of the plot now because they were all building up to something. 

And when it's plot heavy it's really plot heavy. I can't wait to see your reaction in S4 where 15 episodes are all connected 

 It's been 7 years since my last re-watch and I'm starting again on Monday.

 

What episodes are next for you? 

Omg 7 years? you have a lot to remember 

 

I'm currently in episode 11 so 12 and 13 are up next 

[NoAngelus]

5 minutes ago, WaterDiamonds said:

Omg 7 years? you have a lot to remember 

 

I'm currently in episode 11 so 12 and 13 are up next 

Yeah I hate the fact so many years passed by without me re-watching B+A 

 

Well, I can't tell you next 3 episodes are memorable  

[StarsAllAligned]

22 hours ago, WaterDiamonds said:

I'm currently watching angel after finishing all of Buffy for the first time (I'm 19, have mercy on my soul for not doing it earlier )

 

idk if it's because I'm kinda off my mind lately but Angel isn't clicking with me the way Buffy did, even tho it's nice too see Cordelia again, love Charisma's portrayal of her, and also David Boreanaz isn't just a sexy ahh wood plank in this show, he's giving RANGE 

It took me years to finish s1 of Angel, I kept getting bored but it does get better. Cordy carries of course and future characters bring the show life, plus the crossovers are amazing. 

[WaterDiamonds]

On 6/29/2024 at 10:12 PM, NoAngelus said:

Yeah I hate the fact so many years passed by without me re-watching B+A 

 

Well, I can't tell you next 3 episodes are memorable  

Cordy getting supernatural powers wasn't on my Joss W. possible plot twists bingo omg...

 

I'm kind of impressed 

[WaterDiamonds]

8 hours ago, StarsAllAligned said:

It took me years to finish s1 of Angel, I kept getting bored but it does get better. Cordy carries of course and future characters bring the show life, plus the crossovers are amazing. 

I get the feeling, I can't bing watch it so far 😭

[NoAngelus]

18 hours ago, WaterDiamonds said:

Cordy getting supernatural powers wasn't on my Joss W. possible plot twists bingo omg...

 

I'm kind of impressed 

Come on sis, make it through. You still have 2 Faith episodes that are probably highlight of her character arc and amazing cliffhanger at season finale. 

[NoAngelus]

So like I said, I finished my 3rd watch of Buffy, so here's my final thoughts:

 

- I loved Buffy the most and I loved Giles until S7

- I didn't care for Willow

- I didn't hate Xander 

- Tara and Anya are useless characters until S6/wedding episode. I really enjoyed Anya after breakup

- I enjoyed Season 6 A LOT. Almost every episode flew by

- I don't mind S7, I like the idea, execution could've been more exciting, I look at episode titles and I still can't remember most of them. I liked the main villain because it was introduced early in the show, and I liked the idea of potentials, but I missed having just B, W and X being together. In this season it felt like they were never more separated despite all 3 being singe for the first time since first season. I missed their intimacy. Maybe this is the reason why I always loved Angel more. They always only had each other. 

- Xander losing an eye is one of the most brutal things done in tv shows

- I loved first 3 seasons the most. 

- Season 5 is overrated. While first few episodes are fresh coming after exhausting S4, season dragged on after Dawn revelation. Glory was introduced way too early and they didn't even do much with her.

 

 

I decided to rewatch it for the first time since 2016 because for years I tried getting into these short streaming shows and I just didn't care about any of them and I was like screw that, I don't wanna waste my time on the shows I know I won't enjoy, let me rewatch something with 22 episodes, with season premieres, mid season finales, season finales, shows where you fall in love with characters. So when I started watching it after years of watching mostly Netflix crap I was slayed. I forgot how good network television used to be. 

 

Can't wait to rewatch Angel now to see If I still prefer it over Buffy. 

 

Oh and I noticed for the first time how totally opposite Buffy and Angel finales are.

 

Buffy spends most of its episode giving empowering speeches, in action, ends on a sunny day with battle behind them. 

While in Angel you see miserable characters deciding how to spend their last night on earth before going into a battle that they might not survive. We don't see battle. We don't see enemies. We only see them wounded, ready to fight, at rain, in the dark. Such a haunting way to end a show and this universe.

 

 

 

How can you not love both of these shows? I will never understand sick hatred some of Buffy stans have for Angel the show. 

Edited July 1 by NoAngelus

[livelikemusic]

19 hours ago, NoAngelus said:

So like I said, I finished my 3rd watch of Buffy, so here's my final thoughts:

 

- I loved Buffy the most and I loved Giles until S7

- I didn't care for Willow

- I didn't hate Xander 

- Tara and Anya are useless characters until S6/wedding episode. I really enjoyed Anya after breakup

- I enjoyed Season 6 A LOT. Almost every episode flew by

- I don't mind S7, I like the idea, execution could've been more exciting, I look at episode titles and I still can't remember most of them. I liked the main villain because it was introduced early in the show, and I liked the idea of potentials, but I missed having just B, W and X being together. In this season it felt like they were never more separated despite all 3 being singe for the first time since first season. I missed their intimacy. Maybe this is the reason why I always loved Angel more. They always only had each other. 

- Xander losing an eye is one of the most brutal things done in tv shows

- I loved first 3 seasons the most. 

- Season 5 is overrated. While first few episodes are fresh coming after exhausting S4, season dragged on after Dawn revelation. Glory was introduced way too early and they didn't even do much with her.

[SinnerCity]

On 7/1/2024 at 8:17 PM, NoAngelus said:

So like I said, I finished my 3rd watch of Buffy, so here's my final thoughts:

 

- I loved Buffy the most and I loved Giles until S7

- I didn't care for Willow

- I didn't hate Xander 

- Tara and Anya are useless characters until S6/wedding episode. I really enjoyed Anya after breakup

- I enjoyed Season 6 A LOT. Almost every episode flew by

- I don't mind S7, I like the idea, execution could've been more exciting, I look at episode titles and I still can't remember most of them. I liked the main villain because it was introduced early in the show, and I liked the idea of potentials, but I missed having just B, W and X being together. In this season it felt like they were never more separated despite all 3 being singe for the first time since first season. I missed their intimacy. Maybe this is the reason why I always loved Angel more. They always only had each other. 

- Xander losing an eye is one of the most brutal things done in tv shows

- I loved first 3 seasons the most. 

- Season 5 is overrated. While first few episodes are fresh coming after exhausting S4, season dragged on after Dawn revelation. Glory was introduced way too early and they didn't even do much with her.

 

 

I decided to rewatch it for the first time since 2016 because for years I tried getting into these short streaming shows and I just didn't care about any of them and I was like screw that, I don't wanna waste my time on the shows I know I won't enjoy, let me rewatch something with 22 episodes, with season premieres, mid season finales, season finales, shows where you fall in love with characters. So when I started watching it after years of watching mostly Netflix crap I was slayed. I forgot how good network television used to be. 

 

Can't wait to rewatch Angel now to see If I still prefer it over Buffy. 

 

Oh and I noticed for the first time how totally opposite Buffy and Angel finales are.

 

Buffy spends most of its episode giving empowering speeches, in action, ends on a sunny day with battle behind them. 

While in Angel you see miserable characters deciding how to spend their last night on earth before going into a battle that they might not survive. We don't see battle. We don't see enemies. We only see them wounded, ready to fight, at rain, in the dark. Such a haunting way to end a show and this universe.

 

 

 

How can you not love both of these shows? I will never understand sick hatred some of Buffy stans have for Angel the show. 

I mean, everyone's entitled to their opinions but:

 

Buffy Season 7 > Angel Season 5

They RUINED Angel S5 by having him be the CEO of W&H LA AFTER everything they fought for in previous seasons, also, what they did to Cordi and Fred is unspeakable, **** JW for that, big time and the ending is one of the most rushed and anticlimactic endings in TV history. It speaks volumes that they had to add a couple of Buffy storylines to make it more interesting when it wasn't really needed.

 

Buffy Season 7 is a fantastic season and you have to be in your 30s to understand it truly, it's so relatable now and most of the things she goes through are some of the things most people in their early 30s go through in terms of identity and self-discovery.

 

Willow's character development is one of the best things in the show, I don't understand how you don't find her journey admirable, but you do you babes.

Edited July 4 by SinnerCity

[NoAngelus]

3 minutes ago, SinnerCity said:

I mean, everyone's entitled to their opinions but:

 

Buffy Season 7 > Angel Season 5

 

Yeah no, not one person would agree with that. Other than Buffy fans who simply hate on Angel. 

 

[SinnerCity]

11 minutes ago, NoAngelus said:

Yeah no, not one person would agree with that. Other than Buffy fans who simply hate on Angel. 

 

Is that right? 

[NoAngelus]

Just now, SinnerCity said:

Is that right? 

It's a fact. It's not an opinion.

 

This reddit said it the best

 

Quote

First, the move to Wolfram&Hart is so perfect. Angel being a show about adulthood serves the commentary on corporate culture so well. The idea of reforming a system from the inside really serves everyone in the cast's distrust of authority and also the general idea of the fight never ending. Even as Team Angel try to actually change the world with their new resources, they struggle under the weight of the companies evil commitments arroding their beliefs.

 

The finale also fufills everything that left me cold with Season 7. A final suicide mission to actually change the world fits the tension of the show. For once, Angel isn't reacting to the actions of forces more powerful than him, he is actively punching up to create a better world. Every major character gets their one perfect scene before that final cliffhanger gut punch. The finale oddly reminded me of the Sopranos final episode where the main character's death is ambigious. Much like the final lament of "don't stop believing" in Sopranos, Team Angel just keeps fighting. 

 

[ctlp27]

Best Angel remains season 2 and 3. As soon as Darla comes back in the S1 finale, you can tell the writers understood what they wanted to do with the show (even though I have a lot of fondness for season 1 and how they tried to be darker and more PI). Season 3 remains peak IMO.

[NoAngelus]

4 hours ago, ctlp27 said:

Best Angel remains season 2 and 3. As soon as Darla comes back in the S1 finale, you can tell the writers understood what they wanted to do with the show (even though I have a lot of fondness for season 1 and how they tried to be darker and more PI). Season 3 remains peak IMO.

I think S3 is the peak of enjoyment for me too since it's the only season of the show with full cast present and being themselves lol

 

And the slowburn sexual tension between Angel and Cordy is much better than his relationship with Buffy, and that episode at the ballet. Wow. 

 

 

[ctlp27]

1 hour ago, NoAngelus said:

I think S3 is the peak of enjoyment for me too since it's the only season of the show with full cast present and being themselves lol

 

And the slowburn sexual tension between Angel and Cordy is much better than his relationship with Buffy, and that episode at the ballet. Wow. 

I agree for the same reasons. The balance between OG Buffy characters, early Angel characters (Gunn and Lorne) and very recent new entry (Fred), was like pitch perfect (and Lilah finally getting more screen time after Lindsay's departure).

[livelikemusic]

On 7/2/2024 at 3:04 PM, SinnerCity said:

Buffy Season 7 > Angel Season 5

Oh, completely. 100%.

[izebize]

Does it ever get better after Season 3? I'm very slowly inching towards the end of the season, but this past episode was so boring and bad

[NoAngelus]

 

 

I went through and charted all of the episodes in both Angel and Buffy (results below). Some interesting takeaways.

 

According to IMDB viewers, Season 3 was Buffy's strongest season - 86% of the episodes that season scored 8 or above, 18% scored 9 or above. Not really a surprise; season 3 I think is kind of widely regarded as peak Buffy. The most interesting result of Buffy's data is that week 7 was consistently very strong (at first it seemed kind of random, then I realized it's fall sweeps week), producing an average of 8.7

 

As far as Angel, to the surprise of probably no one, IMDB viewers found Season 5 to be Angel's strongest season. However, what is surprising is the fact that it's also the strongest season in the entire Buffyverse. It's average score was a whopping 8.6, with 91% scoring over an 8 and over a quarter of them scoring over a 9. Angel truly ended at the top of its game.

 

Also interesting is to note that both Angel's average and median episode scores were higher than Buffy's. Of course, we all know there were some clunkers in Buffy's run that brought down its average, and it's definitely true that Buffy had the three highest-rated episodes (I don't have to mention them because I think we all know what they are). However, Angel had three of the top 4 seasons, and a higher percentage of episodes rated 8 or above and 9 or above. So while Buffy reached greater heights, Angel was more consistently good.

I know that IMDB is not the be-all/end-all evaluation tool, but I thought it was worth sharing.

 

 

 

[izebize]

16 hours ago, NoAngelus said:

 

 

I went through and charted all of the episodes in both Angel and Buffy (results below). Some interesting takeaways.

 

According to IMDB viewers, Season 3 was Buffy's strongest season - 86% of the episodes that season scored 8 or above, 18% scored 9 or above. Not really a surprise; season 3 I think is kind of widely regarded as peak Buffy. The most interesting result of Buffy's data is that week 7 was consistently very strong (at first it seemed kind of random, then I realized it's fall sweeps week), producing an average of 8.7

 

As far as Angel, to the surprise of probably no one, IMDB viewers found Season 5 to be Angel's strongest season. However, what is surprising is the fact that it's also the strongest season in the entire Buffyverse. It's average score was a whopping 8.6, with 91% scoring over an 8 and over a quarter of them scoring over a 9. Angel truly ended at the top of its game.

 

Also interesting is to note that both Angel's average and median episode scores were higher than Buffy's. Of course, we all know there were some clunkers in Buffy's run that brought down its average, and it's definitely true that Buffy had the three highest-rated episodes (I don't have to mention them because I think we all know what they are). However, Angel had three of the top 4 seasons, and a higher percentage of episodes rated 8 or above and 9 or above. So while Buffy reached greater heights, Angel was more consistently good.

I know that IMDB is not the be-all/end-all evaluation tool, but I thought it was worth sharing.

 

 

 

girl answer the question instead of downvoting!

[NoAngelus]

On 7/5/2024 at 12:58 PM, izebize said:

girl answer the question instead of downvoting!

What do you want me to say if you didn't like show by now?

[izebize]

17 minutes ago, NoAngelus said:

What do you want me to say if you didn't like show by now?

Lol I liked it until mid-season 3 that's why I asked! Not watching 2.5 seasons of something I dislike  

[NoAngelus]

5 minutes ago, izebize said:

Lol I liked it until mid-season 3 that's why I asked! Not watching 2.5 seasons of something I dislike  

S4 is controversial because of one character, but other than that it's like 15 episodes long arc where episodes are basically starting where previous ended. That kind of serialized format was not seen back in the day and it was praised at the time. But over the years fans started hating it because of that thing I named first. 

 

S5 is Madonna type of reinvention. It's most acclaimed season with show's best episodes and it ended on a high with so many ideas left to desire. 

 

What episode is next for you in S3? There's this one huge thing happening at the end of the season and it's impact is felt until the end of the show. 

 

 

[Poxy]

Finally started this. Just finished episode 8