discussion Buffy the Vampire Slayer + Angel (aka Buffyverse)

[The Man Who]

Nothing would have happened on any season of Buffy or Angel without Joss’s say so. Regardless of how involved he was with the day to day handling of the shows. Like I said earlier, Marti took over for S6, but if you think any storylines happened without his approval, you don’t know much about how shows are ran. 

[ithinkheknowsoutsold]

On 1/8/2024 at 3:26 PM, ithinkheknowsoutsold said:

My ranking of the Buffy seasons:

 

#1. Season 5

#2. Season 7

#3. Season 2

#4. Season 1 

#5. Season 3

#6. Season 6

#7. Season 4

Okay I've had time to sit on this and my ranking has definitely changed.

 

#1. Season 5

#2. Season 2

#3. Season 3

#4. Season 1

#5. Season 6

#6. Season 7

#7. Season 4

 

Recency bias really affected my Season 7 placement back then.

[ithinkheknowsoutsold]

I'm surprised at how much Angel discourse has been going on lately; I was on the fence about watching it but I miss Cordelia too much to not consider watching it all. Might be the next show I go through.  

 

Hate that I spoiled all of it for myself because I was sure I was never going to watch it, at least not so shortly after finishing Buffy.

[Ponzi]

Hey! I've been rewatching Buffy and Angel a lot these past few months. They're kind of becoming comfort shows to me so I thought I'd chime in.

'The Body' and 'A Hole in the World' are the episodes I've skipped in my comfort runs, though. Those episodes are just soul-crushing  

Edited March 20 by Ponzi

[NoAngelus]

I started watching S6 now so let me write some of my (un)popular opinion of this rewatch:

 

- I loved S1 this time, honestly first 3 seasons were my fave this time. First time I watched show I think S5 was my fave, but rewatching it now it's not, and it only seems great because it's coming after messy S4 and because mystery around Dawn was amazing. Main/Glory storyline dragged for too long.

- Only characters I loved this time around are Buffy and Giles. First time I watched the show I loved Willow and Anya. Now I can't stand them. I always hated Xander but with this rewatch I don't mind him at all. He had few terrible moments in S2 and S3 but they redeemed him starting with S4 and I like him a lot.

- I hate Magic Shop and everything about it. Like who can make a living out of magic shop? In a small town. As if locals would really go every day there to buy random things. It's just not believable.

- I don't care about Spike. I liked him when he was villain. He should've been killed at the end of S6 because he definitely overstayed his welcome. 

- I always liked S6 and S7 and I don't get the hate, especially when I see reasons like 'it's moody'

[Inverted]

On 2/15/2024 at 4:26 PM, Tomek said:

Was Buffy that popular during it's original airing in the US?

 

On 2/15/2024 at 6:59 PM, StarsAllAligned said:

Yes!

For a WB or UPN show, yes. In general, not really. The show average 3-5 million per episode. That was very low for 90s standards. The big shows like ER, Friends, The West Wing, etc. got up to 30 million viewers for every episode.

[Inverted]

On 3/1/2024 at 7:17 AM, The Man Who said:

Although Angel did have some fantastic storylines and episodes, it never gripped me the way Buffy did. I constantly get the urge to rewatch Buffy and I never feel that way about Angel. It actually took me ages to watch it all the way through and I originally just used to watch the crossover episodes to see my baby girl Faith. 
 

I remember enjoying the first three seasons but finding the last two a struggle to sit through. There's a character who comes into the show during the fourth season and I can't stand them. 

 

On 3/1/2024 at 7:20 AM, Gorjesspazze9 said:

The start of Angel is horrible, and most people can't get through the first 2 seasons. Darla & Drusilla had to come in and save it🤭 

but yeah S3 is when the writing peaks and the ensemble cast starts to really work. But S4 is hated because of what they do to Cordelia. The last season is good, campy fun like Buffy. But overall Angel isn't really as good. It's just like Buffy for adults, but it's kinda boring. 

 

On 3/1/2024 at 7:25 AM, Bloody Willy said:

 

 

Phew, I honestly thought it was just me because I've been reading some think pieces that keep claiming Angel is the superior series out of the two for some reason and I just... don't see how that's possible? I think I saw a user on Reddit say Buffy is the heart and Angel is the soul of the Buffyverse, but to me the latter so far has been really bland. I guess I'll pass on the rest of it.

 

On 3/1/2024 at 7:40 AM, Gorjesspazze9 said:

A lot of Buffyverse fans think the show is more intellectual 😆 even tho it's really not. Buffy explored just as many themes just through a coming of age lense. But a lot of fans think Angel is deep

 

On 3/1/2024 at 8:11 AM, The Man Who said:

 

Like I said earlier, Angel did have some fantastic episodes, but nothing that served the same excellence as The Body, The Gift, Hush, Normal Again, Passion, Becoming Part 2, The Wish, Conversations With Dead People or Once More, With Feeling. 
 

People are obviously entitled to their own opinion but I just can't imagine saying Angel is the superior show. You know, Angel's a cute girl. Cute, next to gorgeous. You know, gorgeous is gonna devour cute. 

 

On 3/12/2024 at 4:30 PM, Gorjesspazze9 said:

Angel was so boring, during every re-Watch I wanna fast foward  Thank God For Cordelia carrying 85% of the first few seasons. 

I'm one of the people that agrees with that crowd. I definitely prefer rewatching Buffy, but obectively Angel as a whole was a better show than Buffy IMO. I think the issue is that people just don't like Angel, Wesley and the other characters so they don't emotionally connect with them and the show becomes a chore for them to watch. You have to an emotional connection with a TV show, pop star, actor, character, etc. I really had to give Angel a chance.

 

I get it because Buffy is a more interesting character and SMG has star power. She really carries the show. Angel doesn't have that. Also, Buffy had amazing episodes, but the show was all over the place. I see people here saying season 5 and 6 are great, but I think they're weak and inconsistent seasons. Angel doesn't have many standout episodes to me, but it has better arcs and cohesive episodes and seasons that make sense as a story.

 

And I do think Angel has deep themes about adulthood (and not just the tired redemption thing Angel is always brooding about).

Edited April 4 by Inverted

[Gorjesspazze9]

S1-S3 of Buffy is some of the best coming of age television ever produced The way each big bad represents another phase of growing up.

-The Master is the epitome of Buffy's Biggest fear and ultimately her greatest "Gift" ; Death. 

-Angelus is the textbook First boyfriend/Breakup that triggers Buffy's depression and her running away at the finale. Losing virginity stage and lost of innocence. So much more but yall get the gist

-The Mayor is the perfect finale Big Bad of High School since it shows the systemic nature of evil in the show. Faith represents the final stages of teen angst and rebellion. The finale where every student stands against the mayor is basically the kids graduation and Buffy telling them not to be like all the other oblivious adults in sunnydale who ignore the daily vampire and demon activity. TO TAKE UP ARMS AND CHANGE THE FUTURE FOR A BETTER MORE WOKE GENERATION! Ok I can't put metaphorical and symbolic importance of these seasons into words. But Buffy is superior then Angel for this alone😌

[NoAngelus]

20 hours ago, Inverted said:

 

For a WB or UPN show, yes. In general, not really. The show average 3-5 million per episode. That was very low for 90s standards. The big shows like ER, Friends, The West Wing, etc. got up to 30 million viewers for every episode.

Show was far more popular than shows with 20m viewers because people actually watched it because they wanted to, not because they played CBS or something in the background and didn't care to change the channel. 

 

Its demographic made the show crossover to pop culture and cast became well known, they were all over magazines, merchandise, tv spots etc. 

Edited April 4 by NoAngelus

[Inverted]

1 hour ago, NoAngelus said:

Show was far more popular than shows with 20m viewers because people actually watched it because they wanted to, not because they played CBS or something in the background and didn't care to change the channel. 

 

Its demographic made the show crossover to pop culture and cast became well known, they were all over magazines, merchandise, tv spots etc. 

Hardly "far more popular" back then. Shows like Buffy and Charmed were cult hits with a dedicated following, especially with teens and young adults. That's why they (Buffy especially) had pop culture impact, was popular on Internet forums, had their faces on teen magazines and it's endured for over 25 years. But it was not a GP-driven show. The average American wasn't watching it. In fact, most Americans didn't even get the WB or UPN. 

 

I definitely wouldn't say the shows getting 20-30 million viewers like ER, The West Wing, Law & Order Seinfeld and Friends  were being watched in the background. The first 3 were hour long dramas and all 5 were Emmy darlings. Also, those big networks like NBC, CBS, ABC and Fox were more likely to cancel shows. They just had wider reach thanks to being on bigger networks and the GP liked them. None of them endured except for Friends, which is still a streaming giant. 

[StarsAllAligned]

On 4/4/2024 at 2:50 PM, Inverted said:

Hardly "far more popular" back then. Shows like Buffy and Charmed were cult hits with a dedicated following, especially with teens and young adults. That's why they (Buffy especially) had pop culture impact, was popular on Internet forums, had their faces on teen magazines and it's endured for over 25 years. But it was not a GP-driven show. The average American wasn't watching it. In fact, most Americans didn't even get the WB or UPN. 

 

I definitely wouldn't say the shows getting 20-30 million viewers like ER, The West Wing, Law & Order Seinfeld and Friends  were being watched in the background. The first 3 were hour long dramas and all 5 were Emmy darlings. Also, those big networks like NBC, CBS, ABC and Fox were more likely to cancel shows. They just had wider reach thanks to being on bigger networks and the GP liked them. None of them endured except for Friends, which is still a streaming giant. 

Well yes it wasn't getting the same viewership as some of the biggest shows of all time, that's hardly a fair comparison but that doesn't change that amongst its demographic Buffy was popular. 

[chosensparkles]

6 hours ago, StarsAllAligned said:

Well yes it wasn't getting the same viewership as some of the biggest shows of all time, that's hardly a fair comparison but that doesn't change that amongst its demographic Buffy was popular. 

basically + no shows on WB/UPN was gonna book 30M viewers

[NoAngelus]

On 4/3/2024 at 8:21 PM, NoAngelus said:

I started watching S6 now so let me write some of my (un)popular opinion of this rewatch:

 

- I loved S1 this time, honestly first 3 seasons were my fave this time. First time I watched show I think S5 was my fave, but rewatching it now it's not, and it only seems great because it's coming after messy S4 and because mystery around Dawn was amazing. Main/Glory storyline dragged for too long.

- Only characters I loved this time around are Buffy and Giles. First time I watched the show I loved Willow and Anya. Now I can't stand them. I always hated Xander but with this rewatch I don't mind him at all. He had few terrible moments in S2 and S3 but they redeemed him starting with S4 and I like him a lot.

- I hate Magic Shop and everything about it. Like who can make a living out of magic shop? In a small town. As if locals would really go every day there to buy random things. It's just not believable.

- I don't care about Spike. I liked him when he was villain. He should've been killed at the end of S6 because he definitely overstayed his welcome. 

- I always liked S6 and S7 and I don't get the hate, especially when I see reasons like 'it's moody'

I'd like to add that I always forget Tara actually had personality in S6.

[NoAngelus]

I have few episodes of S^ left and oh my god, so far I have enjoyed every single episode of this season. I think I might rank it just after S3 and S2 this time around.

 

I am really annoyed by the hate it gets from fans and especially the reasons. I think S5 is also very overrated, during this rewatch I did a full 180 on it. I used to think it was the best but the truth is it has a luxury of following S4, first few episodes are very strong, it looks like brand new exciting show after S4 sucks life out of us, and it has amazing Dawn mystery but once that is out the story drags until the end. 

[Have A Break]

21 hours ago, NoAngelus said:

I have few episodes of S^ left and oh my god, so far I have enjoyed every single episode of this season. I think I might rank it just after S3 and S2 this time around.

 

I am really annoyed by the hate it gets from fans and especially the reasons. I think S5 is also very overrated, during this rewatch I did a full 180 on it. I used to think it was the best but the truth is it has a luxury of following S4, first few episodes are very strong, it looks like brand new exciting show after S4 sucks life out of us, and it has amazing Dawn mystery but once that is out the story drags until the end. 

For me, my ranking only minimally changed. I watched the show when it aired and s5 was then on top of the list.

 

However, after rewatches, I think my ranking now is:

 

s2 on top, very closely followed by s3.

Then s5 (it did cheapen more and more on rewatches as the story just drags on and on, s7 has that same problem),

followed by s4 and s1. I think s4 gets such a bad rep, and I understand it is not exactly the season they wanted to make since Lindsay Crouse dropped out midway through and they had to rearrange some things, but it's still such a fun ride of a season.

S1 is very dear to my b-horror-movie loving heart. Love it! And I don't know how they did it, but on every rewatch, it still managed to be fresh and never dull. 

 

S6 and s7... I love the beginning of s6 and the overall idea. I mean, where CAN you go after s5 BUT make it depressing? Buffy's speech to Spike in the alley in After Life is such a fantastic moment in the series as well as Giles and Willow's fight in Flooded.

I think they had the right idea- but the execution midway through (or even earlier than that) just didn't quite live up to it. I don't know if it had anything to do with Joss not being 100% on-site and committed 95% his time to Firefly which he worked on around that time, but it might be a reason why things seem so weirdly off. The show never was too subtle when it came to metaphors and things like that to begin with, but they just managed to make those moments and stories a lot more intriguing and compelling in the earlier seasons through their execution. This time things just fell a little flat for me.

Same problem with s7: a grand finale that sounds great on paper-- but somehow they managed to drag it out instead of streamlining the story to make it all wonderful and compact (and don't get me started on Empty Places. After that episode I didn't care about Anya at all lol)

 

Regarding the characters: Buffy and Giles are still my favorites. Never really liked Willow apart from some cute lines and moments here and there. But that's the magic of the show and Joss' writing: her character was so nicely set up so early on that it would make sense for someone like her to become the manipulative powerhungry s6-Willow.

[Josh]

I'm writing some Buffy fanfic this summer if any one wants to know about it DM or quote me

[NoAngelus]

Does anyone remember/know the timeline of Angel cancelation?

 

Were they canceled after they finished shooting or they actually had time for rewrites and open ending was what Joss wanted?

[CovalentBondage]

Can anyone recommend any books on buffy that discuss the shows impact on culture? I started reading the one by Evan Ross Katz but everyone says its bad. 

[NoAngelus]

Oh god, I'm in my 30s and i cried again after finishing the show... more thoughts later on when i gather myself. 

[WaterDiamonds]

I'm currently watching angel after finishing all of Buffy for the first time (I'm 19, have mercy on my soul for not doing it earlier )

 

idk if it's because I'm kinda off my mind lately but Angel isn't clicking with me the way Buffy did, even tho it's nice too see Cordelia again, love Charisma's portrayal of her, and also David Boreanaz isn't just a sexy ahh wood plank in this show, he's giving RANGE 

[NoAngelus]

1 hour ago, WaterDiamonds said:

I'm currently watching angel after finishing all of Buffy for the first time (I'm 19, have mercy on my soul for not doing it earlier )

 

idk if it's because I'm kinda off my mind lately but Angel isn't clicking with me the way Buffy did, even tho it's nice too see Cordelia again, love Charisma's portrayal of her, and also David Boreanaz isn't just a sexy ahh wood plank in this show, he's giving RANGE 

There's this thing where people go into Angel expecting it to be Buffy so when they don't see characters from Buffy they are like 'nah this sucks'.

 

But those who actually start Angel without expecting it be something that it's not end up loving it more than Buffy.

 

Where are you currently with Angel?

 

There are two types of people in this fanbase:

1) buffy shippers that hate angel, some even without seeing it

2) fans of the both shows (like me) but prefer angel because objectively it has better characters and stories

 

[WaterDiamonds]

15 minutes ago, NoAngelus said:

There's this thing where people go into Angel expecting it to be Buffy so when they don't see characters from Buffy they are like 'nah this sucks'.

 

But those who actually start Angel without expecting it be something that it's not end up loving it more than Buffy.

 

Where are you currently with Angel?

 

There are two types of people in this fanbase:

1) buffy shippers that hate angel, some even without seeing it

2) fans of the both shows (like me) but prefer angel because objectively it has better characters and stories

 

I'm still in season one with Angel, I'm slowly but surely watching it in my free time, don't plan on quitting bc even tho I'm not enjoying it as much as buffy I'm still enjoying it nonetheless 

 

Tbh I kinda need to know the buffy fandom lore, what are you guys up to?

[NoAngelus]

1 minute ago, WaterDiamonds said:

I'm still in season one with Angel, I'm slowly but surely watching it in my free time, don't plan on quitting bc even tho I'm not enjoying it as much as buffy I'm still enjoying it nonetheless 

 

Tbh I kinda need to know the buffy fandom lore, what are you guys up to?

Oh ok, there's still hope you'll enjoy it more. Angel in S1 was still finding its own path. You have yet to meet other characters. And ofc see Angel go from boring miserable sidekick Buffy character to funny lovebale goofball leader. I'm sure David got Bones gig on the back of Angel. 

 

I'm not really sure I understand what lore is 

 

 

[WaterDiamonds]

14 minutes ago, NoAngelus said:

Oh ok, there's still hope you'll enjoy it more. Angel in S1 was still finding its own path. You have yet to meet other characters. And ofc see Angel go from boring miserable sidekick Buffy character to funny lovebale goofball leader. I'm sure David got Bones gig on the back of Angel. 

 

I'm not really sure I understand what lore is 

 

 

Oh the lore is basically the it's most iconic events and a little bit of its background and stuff 

 

Tbh what's the best Angel season?

[NoAngelus]

12 minutes ago, WaterDiamonds said:

Oh the lore is basically the it's most iconic events and a little bit of its background and stuff 

 

Tbh what's the best Angel season?

I'll wait for others to post to understand better what you mean 

 

Honestly i love Angel equally from s2 till the end, and i loved most stand alone episodes in S1.

 

You'll see recurring characters from Buffy in S2 and S3 and most will say that was highlight of the show.

Sometimes I think S5 is the peak of the show, it was the biggest reinvention in television history, critics praised it so much at the time and it was top rated season of the show. So it ended on a high. Everyone agrees it had better ending than Buffy.  

And while watching S4 I thought it was the best thing ever until something happened.

And sometimes I think S3 was the peak of the show before something happened that changed the dynamics between characters of the show until the very end. 

And sometimes I think of ideas that were introduced in S2 and3 episodes arc in other universe and I wish we got to see more of that. 

 

Angel doesn't have obvious stand alone episodes like Buffy that you see fans name outside of first Buffy episode in S1 and 100th episode. But it was more cohesive show.