discussion Biden walks-back student debt promise, won't be doing Warren's $50k plan

[xclusivestylesz]

10 hours ago, Communion said:

The issue is you're framing people as ungrateful when the reason we have anything is because of the people you're negatively framing as complaining. 

 

You're like doing those golden mean fallacies where somehow compromise for compromise sake is the moral position, but this misrepresents the argument. No one is asking for a handout because life is hard- we're saying the Department of Education must be held liable for its predatory loans. If a loan is predatory, there's no compromising on just how much to forgive, the entire loan was made in bad practice and is unethical. 

 

Also the issue isn't just "not getting everything" but that the Biden admin is lying by framing $50k forgiven as regressive bexause their plan that is the exact same nut $10k is ALSO regressive. They are being criticized for making a claim but then offering a solution that doesn't align with that claim. If they wanted to forgive debt progressively, there'd be income tiers with the most poor being given complete debt forgiveness. 

So you're telling me that the far left is responsible for... Everything? What exactly have you guys spoken into fruition? I genuinely respect you guys cause you're the only ones fighting for us but it's at a point now where it's just getting ridiculous. There's no compromise. You're offered something positive but rather reject that because it's not good enough. You rather risk fighting more, to get nothing,  instead of taking what's offered. I don't know about you but I'm perfectly happy with 10k less debt. I accept the offer. 

 

You make it seem like the majority of Americans went to ivy league and is 400k in debt when that's not the reality of things. 10k will be a huge relief to many because most is only 10-40k in debt. 

 

I agree with the the loans being predatory however at this point in time do you not think 18 year olds have enough information readily available to them to make wiser decisions? Because they do. Go somewhere you can afford instead of aiming for a school that's out of your budget? You're willingly choosing to rack up 100k+ in debt. That's all on you.

 

Instead of buying a G Wagon i would settle on a used 2017 BMW. They both will get the job done but one is making a financially responsible decision while the other is going beyond my means because I want the best. You very well can go to a state university instead of attending Harvard. Life isn't fair, as you've acknowledged.

 

[Communion]

1 hour ago, ProudLBS said:

You quoted me!

You posted misinformation and continue to double-down on posting what is objectively false information instead of admitting you misspoke and are trying to be an ideologue despite your view of the world not aligning with the facts of reality.

 

You literally are in this thread trying to argue that most student debt is caused by "worthless degrees".

Except that the "worthless degrees" and occupations you're claiming are:

• Anything "liberal arts"
• Sociologists
• Teachers
• Nurses
• Business Owners
• Psychologists

You're literally trying to argue that there's no issue with the cost of education in America because "well plastic surgeons can afford their student loans" ???????  You go on to even say **** like this:

1 hour ago, ProudLBS said:

Is that why most of them finish paying off their student loans in less than 5 years?

"Most"? The number of doctors who pay off their loans in the first 5 years is actually 1/3rd. And no one is crying for doctors - people are using them to show the dishonesty in your claim that only "people with worthless degrees struggle to pay back their student loans". Even the borrowers with the highest of incomes struggle to pay back their student loans. 

 

You tried claiming being concerned about "people feeling they have to go to college" while refusing to acknowledge the huge burden of student debt held by people who go to technical schools and who pursued certificates over academic degrees.

 

And I'm not trying to be petty, but you're literally from Portugal, where free higher education is a literal birthright.  It is cheaper for an American to go to your country and get a Masters than it would be to get a Bachelors from many American universities. It's completely outrageous to claim those struggling to pay off student debt are so because their "degree is worthless" while living in a country where education costs range from 1/10th to 1/25th the costs that come with American education. 

 

This of course isn't to bash your country; on the contrary, I'm sure you probably take for granted the immense privileges the welfare state you were born that Portugal has graciously given you. The point is to emphasize the problems found in the American education system and its costs that you are for-some-reason insistent on downplaying despite having no lived experiences with it. 

 

Not everyone can be a plastic surgeon. Not everyone can be a neurosurgeon. Not everyone can build robots. Education is premised as a great equalizer that offers upward mobility in the face of rapid automation and horrific neoliberal free trade policies that both erased the existence of "blue collar labor" and destroyed the prominence of unions in America. The biggest union movement in America right now is amongst the largely *college-educated* barista workers of a coffee chain. America has broken its social contract of upward mobility and is now being taken to task by its populace; I'm sorry if like poor people not dying in poverty in the gutter is upsetting to you or something.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Communion

[Communion]

20 minutes ago, xclusivestylesz said:

but rather reject that because it's not good enough

Biden leaving the vast majority of borrowers - including disproportionately black and brown  lower-income borrowers - in debt is not solving the student debt crisis. You're again arguing "compromise for compromise sake" despite having no actual clue what the numbers you're claiming are a good compromise mean materially. There's no data-based argument for why the most poor borrowers should be stranded with debt that on average exceeds over half of their yearly-income. You're not helping poor people with student loans by speaking over them and trying to sell them down the river just to then get to have the warm-feelings of having 'compromised'. 

 

You keep repeating the  argument that "no one is entitled to anything" when no one is arguing for an entitlement - this is a negotiation. If Democrats want votes, they''ll do what their constituents want. And their constituents want student debt relief. No one is entitled to anything in life - including politicians getting votes.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Communion

[Cruel Summer]

Literal children and young people in their very first adult steps into our capitalist hellscape are definitely not well-equipped to make long-term financial decisions and our education system intentionally neglects to prepare them for financial reality. People don't go into the college decision process understanding the numbers in front of them, and they go into it with immense social pressure to choose a "good" school to get a "good" degree - not to choose degree path that's specifically fiscally responsible in an economic environment that the adults guiding them don't even understand. They go into it being told they're doing what's right to have a good life, not being told about all the other options and the caveats. Let's get a little real about the process before we start talking about financial and personal responsibility. Not a single person alive should have ever had to be "responsible" for whatever debt they have accrued for higher education - it should have been entirely free, funded by reasonable and responsible taxation, in the first place, just like health care, just like basic necessities. 

[Isaiah]

Democrats are gonna be the sole reason the Alt-right takeover in the future 

[ProudLBS]

5 minutes ago, Communion said:

And I'm not trying to be petty, but you're literally from Portugal, where free higher education is a literal birthright.  

You accuse me of spreading misinformation to then you post this? 

 

I paid tuition, and now the government steals 25% of my paycheck every month to fund welfare ponzi scheme crap, let alone all the sky-high taxes on everything.

 

45 minutes ago, Communion said:

You literally are in this thread trying to argue that most student debt is caused by "worthless degrees".

Except that the "worthless degrees" and occupations you're claiming are:

• Anything "liberal arts"
• Sociologists
• Teachers
• Nurses
• Business Owners
• Psychologists

if you can make a similar amount without a degree, thus avoiding being 200K in debt, yes, getting a degree is a dumb financial decision. Isn't that... obvious? 

 

I never said teachers, nurses, etc, weren't important; just that financially it doesn't make sense to become one.

[Communion]

5 minutes ago, ProudLBS said:

if you can make a similar amount without a degree

You can't. Which is the point.  But considering you're calling taxation theft and bemoaning paying your fair share as an affluent person so you and other Portuguese nationals can go to college paid-for by taxes, it's clear you're not actually participating in this conversation out of concern for poor Americans career-planning. If you hate free public education so much, start at home first and leave us alone, thank you. 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Communion

[ProudLBS]

13 minutes ago, Communion said:

considering you're calling taxation theft and bemoaning paying your fair share as an affluent person

I make about the same as your state's minimum wage 

Edited April 30, 2022 by ProudLBS

[Communion]

8 minutes ago, ProudLBS said:

I make about the same as your state's minimum wage 

I imagine that goes a long more way when with a European welfare system that guarantees healthcare and higher education as a right. Genuinely jealous!

 

If you think there are a bunch of lots of worthless degrees in America producing a lot of student loan debt, wait until you find out about how many of us Americans have worthless bodies producing medical debt!

Edited April 30, 2022 by Communion

[ProudLBS]

20 minutes ago, Communion said:

I imagine that goes a long more way when with a European welfare system that guarantees healthcare and higher education as a right. Genuinely jealous!

Pretty much everything is more expensive here.

 

When you have low income people buying private health insurance out of their own pocket so they don't have to wait years 

 

And what's the point of having subsidized tuition when you don't start being taxed less after you've paid it off? It would literally make more sense to get a loan cause when you're done with it you're done with it 

Edited April 30, 2022 by ProudLBS

[Attitude]

The people believing the government is going to cancel student loan debt.

 

[frenchyisback]

On 4/29/2022 at 9:19 PM, xclusivestylesz said:

So you're telling me that the far left is responsible for... Everything? What exactly have you guys spoken into fruition? I genuinely respect you guys cause you're the only ones fighting for us but it's at a point now where it's just getting ridiculous. There's no compromise. You're offered something positive but rather reject that because it's not good enough. You rather risk fighting more, to get nothing,  instead of taking what's offered. I don't know about you but I'm perfectly happy with 10k less debt. I accept the offer. 

 

You make it seem like the majority of Americans went to ivy league and is 400k in debt when that's not the reality of things. 10k will be a huge relief to many because most is only 10-40k in debt. 

 

I agree with the the loans being predatory however at this point in time do you not think 18 year olds have enough information readily available to them to make wiser decisions? Because they do. Go somewhere you can afford instead of aiming for a school that's out of your budget? You're willingly choosing to rack up 100k+ in debt. That's all on you.

 

Instead of buying a G Wagon i would settle on a used 2017 BMW. They both will get the job done but one is making a financially responsible decision while the other is going beyond my means because I want the best. You very well can go to a state university instead of attending Harvard. Life isn't fair, as you've acknowledged.

 

That’s personally how I moved from Euro Style far left to the middle and now leaning right  in economics .

 

i just can’t get with the never happy, Always complaining attitude. The entitlement is nothing like I’ve seen before.

 

I started seeing that when they acted like Obamacare was heartless torture even though it helped MILLIONS.

The same who were fighting so hard for $15  wage turn around and are now calling $15 pay for a housekeeper “slave wage” 

 

Once I understood that nothing will ever be enough and that they will still attack you for giving them exactly what they want. I realized republicans were right all along about them on economics.

 

They just don’t wanna work. They Wanna stay home and be sponsored by the gvt for their entire lifestyle.

Edited May 1, 2022 by frenchyisback

[Bloo]

It’s so pitiful that our country seems ot be disinterested in investing in higher education. Investing in our citizens to achieve a college education is so meaningful and is worth spending money. We are all made better off for having a well-educated society. We are all better off for having teachers that aren’t burdened with immense amounts of debt that they may never pay off. We are all better off with people with an idea to start a business feeling free to start it because they don’t have student debt that locks them into a bad employment situation. 

 

Biden and the Democrats as a whole are idiots for not cancelling student debt entirely. It’s electorally smart and it is the morally correct position to take. 

[Devin]

[Communion]

1 hour ago, xclusivestylesz said:

The funniest thing is that these people still won't vote for Dems even if Biden was to cancel loans today. They'll rather have DeSantis win instead of swallowing their pride. When that happens we'll never stop hearing about how Dems failed the country. If you want to see the cesspool Goldmine lookup 'antiwork' on reddit. I kid you not I was just reading about someone demanding to be given food on their lunch break  I started off on the far left but they've allowed their party to be overrun by unhinged loons. Nothing is good enough nor realistic any longer. They'll never be happy when the goalpost changes biweekly. Outrage for the sake of being outraged.

 

I can't with the permanent pessimistic mindset. It's an unhealthy and entirely too toxic environment. People like the OP of this thread is a perfect example of what's wrong. He's(she?) Clearly is a very intelligent person with good intentions but every post I see from them is a freaking essay attacking anyone for having an opinion that doesn't align with theirs. You're not allowed to think differently. Like bro go plant a tree or something instead ??‍♂️ 

All these words and yet you still can't articulate an argument defending Biden's regressive idea for forgiveness outside of "just be happy with anything! compromise is good for compromise's sake!". It's lacking depth. 

[Pie-kun]

Biden was never for $50,000 student debt relief. He was always for $10,000 debt relief with income limits.

 

Quote

Instead, he has repeatedly said he's open to canceling up to $10,000 in federal student loans per borrower. “We should forgive a minimum of $10,000/person of federal student loans, as proposed by Senator Warren and colleagues,” Biden tweeted on March 22, 2020. “Young people and other student debt holders bore the brunt of the last crisis. It shouldn't happen again.”

And what he's referring to when he says "as proposed by Senator Warren and her colleagues" was a $10,000 student debt relief bill that she released around the start of covid, it's not referring to her presidential platform plan of $50,000.

 

https://www.warren.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/schumer-murray-brown-and-warren-unveil-bold-new-plan-to-cancel-student-loan-payments-for-duration-of-coronavirus-emergency-and-provide-minimum-10k-payoff-for-all-federal-student-loan-borrowers

Edited May 1, 2022 by Pie-kun

[Bhabylon]

Disappointed it's not more, but I mean I will gladly take $10k

[Dula Peep]

On 4/29/2022 at 9:50 PM, Cruel Summer said:

Literal children and young people in their very first adult steps into our capitalist hellscape are definitely not well-equipped to make long-term financial decisions and our education system intentionally neglects to prepare them for financial reality. People don't go into the college decision process understanding the numbers in front of them, and they go into it with immense social pressure to choose a "good" school to get a "good" degree - not to choose degree path that's specifically fiscally responsible in an economic environment that the adults guiding them don't even understand. They go into it being told they're doing what's right to have a good life, not being told about all the other options and the caveats. Let's get a little real about the process before we start talking about financial and personal responsibility. Not a single person alive should have ever had to be "responsible" for whatever debt they have accrued for higher education - it should have been entirely free, funded by reasonable and responsible taxation, in the first place, just like health care, just like basic necessities. 

Which is why you need to work on lowering the cost or making college free FIRST… then start talking about forgiving student loan debt. Because as others have said, it’s just putting a bandaid on the problem. 

[Communion]

39 minutes ago, Pie-kun said:

Biden was never for $50,000 student debt relief.

Again, this is literally a lie. He literally ran on free college and debt forgiveness for those making under $125k. 

 

 

 

The caveat being that he wanted Congress to do it through legislation and said he didn't have the power to do it himself. Spoiler : He now admits he does have the power by admitting he'll consider $10k in forgiveness through executive authority.

 

In fact, he even started admitting this reality when saying he supported large-but-tiered student debt forgiveness for those making under $125k and who went to a public college BUT "ALSO" would "knock $10k off everybody's student debt as we try to get out of this pandemic". These are literally his words:

 

 

So he didn't even originally run on means-testing the $10k he bent the knee on using executive authority for.  This man has over-promised and under-delivered and you making excuses for him will only harm Democrats in more material ways than alleged progressive in-fighting ever could.

 

"Biden never said he'd forgive all debt by executive authority - he only said that should happen via Congress!" is illiterate of a defense. It's a literal denial of the facts and words in front of you.

Edited May 1, 2022 by Communion

[Oxy]

libertarianism is the way 

[Communion]

11 minutes ago, Dula Peep said:

Which is why you need to work on lowering the cost or making college free FIRST

This is nonsense and incoherent no matter how many times you keep repeating it - student debt forgiveness has *ALREADY STARTED*. We are already *doing it first*. The payments have been turned off and no one is going to start paying them back unless by force -  the pandemic exposed the contradictions in the social contract and now Democrats have to reconcile with how to not piss off their voters by forcing inequality onto them. 

Edited May 1, 2022 by Communion

[xDiamondx]

9 hours ago, Bloo said:

It’s so pitiful that our country seems ot be disinterested in investing in higher education. Investing in our citizens to achieve a college education is so meaningful and is worth spending money. We are all made better off for having a well-educated society. We are all better off for having teachers that aren’t burdened with immense amounts of debt that they may never pay off. We are all better off with people with an idea to start a business feeling free to start it because they don’t have student debt that locks them into a bad employment situation. 

 

Biden and the Democrats as a whole are idiots for not cancelling student debt entirely. It’s electorally smart and it is the morally correct position to take. 

The reality of it is... both parties (yes, even Democrats) benefit off a largely uneducated population; and of those who do get an education, it's subsequently better to keep them under duress with student loan debt. At this point, we're just indentured servants with how the parties view anything remotely beneficial for the working class.  

[arceus]

Good decision  Money can be spent elsewhere then

[ClashAndBurn]

Quote

 

The White House confirmed reports that President Joe Biden is considering linking student-loan forgiveness to income.

 

"The president talked back on the campaign trail about taking steps or looking at steps to help people making less than $125,000 a year, so that is the frame through which he is making considerations at this point," Press Secretary Jen Psaki told reporters on Tuesday.

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/biden-weighing-student-loan-debt-forgiveness-income-cap-under-125k-2022-5?amp

 

So not only will it be only $10k, it will be severely means-tested, and the neoliberals are still complaining that that's still too high a cap and that "those lazy fucks need to be forced to pay their loans without the moral hazard of being subsidized by taxpayers."

 

Any relief at all is too much. Clearly we shouldn't have done any COVID relief at all to stave off an impending eviction crisis because "inflation" right?