Ghiles Posted October 9 Posted October 9 People talk about Russian and alleged Chinese interference all day but I'm sure nobody is meddling with these elections like Israel. 1
wastedpotential Posted October 9 Posted October 9 I know the conversation has mostly wrapped, but re the immigration thing, I don't think some of y'all realize how much the discourse has shifted outside of your bubble. As someone living in a border state not especially far from the border, I've had multiple conversations with Obama/Clinton/Biden/presumably Harris voters in my far-extended social circle (more than a few of whom being Mexican-American themselves, for whatever that's worth) who have basically argued for Abbott to disperse the entire national guard along the border to shoot and kill anyone who tries to cross over the Rio Grande instead of at the plazas (or to employ land mines or to use kamikaze drones or to bring back those buoys that were causing people to drown). Surely you remember that picture of the border patrol officer literally whipping Haitian migrants, but I know you'd be pretty horrified to read the majority of the comments under the local news Facebook posts Now, I'm not especially optimistic that Texas becomes a swing state in 2024, but if it ever were to, it would be on the backs of pro-gay, pro-abortion suburban voters who are so afraid of the cartels and the gangs that they essentially want to create Israel-style "buffer zones" along the border in conjunction with the "immigration for me and not for thee because you dilute the value of my labor" Mexican Americans, and I just don't think some of y'all really understand where the public opinion is now in some of the places most acutely affected. 2 2
RihRihGirrrl Posted October 9 Posted October 9 4 minutes ago, wastedpotential said: I know the conversation has mostly wrapped, but re the immigration thing, I don't think some of y'all realize how much the discourse has shifted outside of your bubble. As someone living in a border state not especially far from the border, I've had multiple conversations with Obama/Clinton/Biden/presumably Harris voters in my far-extended social circle (more than a few of whom being Mexican-American themselves, for whatever that's worth) who have basically argued for Abbott to disperse the entire national guard along the border to shoot and kill anyone who tries to cross over the Rio Grande instead of at the plazas (or to employ land mines or to use kamikaze drones or to bring back those buoys that were causing people to drown). Surely you remember that picture of the border patrol officer literally whipping Haitian migrants, but I know you'd be pretty horrified to read the majority of the comments under the local news Facebook posts Now, I'm not especially optimistic that Texas becomes a swing state in 2024, but if it ever were to, it would be on the backs of pro-gay, pro-abortion suburban voters who are so afraid of the cartels and the gangs that they essentially want to create Israel-style "buffer zones" along the border in conjunction with the "immigration for me and not for thee because you dilute the value of my labor" Mexican Americans, and I just don't think some of y'all really understand where the public opinion is now in some of the places most acutely affected. This is so weird because as someone who lives on the East coast in D.C, I literally have not heard much at all about immigration or the border since the last election....granted, I have tuned out of politics for the most part after the 2020 elections (needed a serious break from the Trump circus). This just goes to show how divided this Country is not just in discourse but in experience. 1
Relampago. Posted October 9 Posted October 9 9 minutes ago, wastedpotential said: I know the conversation has mostly wrapped, but re the immigration thing, I don't think some of y'all realize how much the discourse has shifted outside of your bubble. As someone living in a border state not especially far from the border, I've had multiple conversations with Obama/Clinton/Biden/presumably Harris voters in my far-extended social circle (more than a few of whom being Mexican-American themselves, for whatever that's worth) who have basically argued for Abbott to disperse the entire national guard along the border to shoot and kill anyone who tries to cross over the Rio Grande instead of at the plazas (or to employ land mines or to use kamikaze drones or to bring back those buoys that were causing people to drown). Surely you remember that picture of the border patrol officer literally whipping Haitian migrants, but I know you'd be pretty horrified to read the majority of the comments under the local news Facebook posts Now, I'm not especially optimistic that Texas becomes a swing state in 2024, but if it ever were to, it would be on the backs of pro-gay, pro-abortion suburban voters who are so afraid of the cartels and the gangs that they essentially want to create Israel-style "buffer zones" along the border in conjunction with the "immigration for me and not for thee because you dilute the value of my labor" Mexican Americans, and I just don't think some of y'all really understand where the public opinion is now in some of the places most acutely affected. Ddd I do not hear this at ALL from border cities in AZ Nogales, Tucson, Yuma… I have family and friends all from there and this just.. isn't a huge concern. It's actually more prevalent in Phoenix but only to the extent of "it's dangerous now!" then you ask "where?" and then somehow the answer is "…Californians!" So.. yeah. I'm not sure how much I buy into this as a legitimate concern and not just the sensationalist narrative tricking gullible people. 1 1
RihRihGirrrl Posted October 9 Posted October 9 4 minutes ago, Thickorita said: Yesterday DeSantis was ignoring both of them so good to know he atleast got his act together to take someone's call
wastedpotential Posted October 9 Posted October 9 2 minutes ago, RihRihGirrrl said: This is so weird because as someone who lives on the East coast in D.C, I literally have not heard much at all about immigration or the border since the last election....granted, I have tuned out of politics for the most part after the 2020 elections (needed a serious break from the Trump circus). This just goes to show how divided this Country is not just in discourse but in experience. Admittedly it's not as pronounced as it was earlier this year, but for instance there was a guy in my book club last month who, after the meeting, started talking about his opinions on what should be done on the border and I thought they were absolutely barbaric, but he had zero qualms about bringing up literal extermination as a potential solution, and either everyone else there was also stunned into silence or they agreed with him 1 1
wastedpotential Posted October 9 Posted October 9 1 minute ago, Relampago. said: Ddd I do not hear this at ALL from border cities in AZ Nogales, Tucson, Yuma… I have family and friends all from there and this just.. isn't a huge concern. It's actually more prevalent in Phoenix but only to the extent of "it's dangerous now!" then you ask "where?" and then somehow the answer is "…Californians!" So.. yeah. I'm not sure how much I buy into this as a legitimate concern and not just the sensationalist narrative tricking gullible people. It could just be my admittedly suburban and overwhelmingly white/south asian county freaking out about seeing the wrong kind of people of color walking on the street, but there's definitely a pernicious sentiment in the air. After those fake stories about the gangs in Aurora first started making waves I heard a few "we're the next target for the smugglers and cartels" arguments and I had a really hard time trying to convince people that was fake thank god that got swallowed up by the Springfield mess because I think the rhetoric to come out of that could've become reeeeeally nasty really quickly 1 1
Communion Posted October 9 Posted October 9 (edited) 26 minutes ago, wastedpotential said: I know the conversation has mostly wrapped, but re the immigration thing, I don't think some of y'all realize how much the discourse has shifted outside of your bubble. As someone living in a border state not especially far from the border, I've had multiple conversations with Obama/Clinton/Biden/presumably Harris voters in my far-extended social circle (more than a few of whom being Mexican-American themselves, for whatever that's worth) who have basically argued for Abbott to disperse the entire national guard along the border to shoot and kill anyone who tries to cross over the Rio Grande instead of at the plazas (or to employ land mines or to use kamikaze drones or to bring back those buoys that were causing people to drown). Surely you remember that picture of the border patrol officer literally whipping Haitian migrants, but I know you'd be pretty horrified to read the majority of the comments under the local news Facebook posts Now, I'm not especially optimistic that Texas becomes a swing state in 2024, but if it ever were to, it would be on the backs of pro-gay, pro-abortion suburban voters who are so afraid of the cartels and the gangs that they essentially want to create Israel-style "buffer zones" along the border in conjunction with the "immigration for me and not for thee because you dilute the value of my labor" Mexican Americans, and I just don't think some of y'all really understand where the public opinion is now in some of the places most acutely affected. This is said over and over yet is - ironically - addressed in the same way over and over with no meaningful rebuttal. The reason why "but the polls" isn't satisfactory of a defense is because political parties as institutions have no excuse for not understanding how consensus is built. It reads as people too proud to acknowledge powerful people are corrupt - including Dems - and are simply working backwards from: Kamala is demonizing migrants -> Kamala needs to win -> Kamala demonizing migrants to win is fine. Biden beat Trump by running on how unpopular his immigration platform was! To now run on Trump's immigration platform is incongruent. People don't just fall out of a coconut tree! They exist in the context of all that comes before them! Consensus changes through exposure or instruction. COVID basically put immigration into America to a halt, so it can't be exposure. People weren't exposed to increased levels of immigration and some imagined downside of it. Biden basically left Trump's Title 42 from COVID in place for the first 2 years of his time in office. So then the issue is instruction. And it's just as much Dems' fault for not pushing back on anti-immigration rhetoric by Republicans because it was a convenient scapegoat for the backlash to ending popular pandemic policies. Like no your paycheck doesn't feel smaller cause undocumented migrants; it's cause power corrupts and even highly popular child tax credits and unemployment protections don't make it out alive of corporations wanting a book-end to the pandemic. This calculus being ******* DUMB because Obama - the Deporter in Chief - and Trump showed us that Americans, despite what they say, instantly don't have the stomach for the kind of cruelty it takes to round up people's neighbors, cruelly deny the humanity of children in your schools, and rip families out of one another's arms. It's one thing for the average person to not get that polling on immigration is contradicting. It's inexcusable for Dem consultants to ignore that the polling for the last 2 decades shows vague support for "law and order" in name alone and that the very same people wanting a "crackdown" on "illegal" migrants also.. think all of those very same "criminal" migrants should be given the chance and opportunity to become legal citizens. What else did many centrists Dems argue "was up for debate"? Abortion. Before Americans were forced to see the reality of right-wing policy in action. Edited October 9 by Communion 1
Tovitov Posted October 9 Posted October 9 34 minutes ago, ZeroSuitBritney said: L The community note is helpful. It's a very badly worded tweet. 3 1
Relampago. Posted October 9 Posted October 9 9 minutes ago, wastedpotential said: It could just be my admittedly suburban and overwhelmingly white/south asian county freaking out about seeing the wrong kind of people of color walking on the street, but there's definitely a pernicious sentiment in the air. After those fake stories about the gangs in Aurora first started making waves I heard a few "we're the next target for the smugglers and cartels" arguments and I had a really hard time trying to convince people that was fake thank god that got swallowed up by the Springfield mess because I think the rhetoric to come out of that could've become reeeeeally nasty really quickly Ah, I see. Pretty much everyone I talk to is Mexican-American in those cities. But I will give you this, while they don't feel crime is a concern, I have seen a lot of blame pointed at people coming in "unfairly" and taking jobs, houses, etc. I don't know if all demographics are concerned with crime, I truly do believe people think crime is down (and it is!) but they are falling for the economic blame being put on immigrants. I can imagine this will only worsen if the rhetoric picks up. 1 2
ClashAndBurn Posted October 9 Posted October 9 If yall think inflation was bad in Biden's first year in office, wait until Kamala implements her Trumpian immigration policies and mass deports undocumented workers, clearing out farmlands and construction sites run by capitalist pigs exploiting them for dirt-cheap labor. 1 2
wastedpotential Posted October 9 Posted October 9 1 minute ago, Communion said: This is said over and over yet is - ironically - addressed in the same way over and over with no meaningful rebuttal. The reason why "but the polls" isn't satisfactory of a defense is because political parties as institutions have no excuse for not understanding how consensus is built. It reads as people too proud to acknowledge powerful people are corrupt - including Dems - and are simply working backwards from: Kamala is demonizing migrants -> Kamala needs to win -> Kamala demonizing migrants to win is fine. Biden beat Trump by running on how unpopular his immigration platform was! To now run on Trump's immigration platform is incongruent. People don't just fall out of a coconut tree! They exist in the context of all that comes before them! Consensus changes through exposure or instruction. COVID basically put immigration into America to a halt, so it can't be exposure. People weren't exposed to increased levels of immigration and some imagined downside of it. Biden basically left Trump's Title 42 from COVID in place for the first 2 years of his time in office. So then the issue is instruction. And it's just as much Dems' fault for not pushing back on anti-immigration rhetoric by Republicans because it was a convenient scapegoat for the backlash to ending popular pandemic policies. Like no your paycheck doesn't feel smaller cause undocumented migrants; it's cause power corrupts and even highly popular child tax credits and unemployment protections don't make it out alive of corporations wanting a book-end to the pandemic. This calculus being ******* DUMB because Obama - the Deporter in Chief - and Trump showed us that Americans, despite what they say, instantly don't have the stomach for the kind of cruelty it takes to round up people's neighbors, cruelly deny the humanity of children in your schools, and rip families out of one another's arms. It's one thing for the average person to not get that polling on immigration is contradicting. It's inexcusable for Dem consiltants to pretend as though the polling for the last 2 decades shows vague support for "law and order" in name alone and that the very same people wanting a "crackdown" on "illegal" migrants also.. think all of those very same "criminal" migrants should be given the chance and opportunity to become legal citizens. Wanna know what else many centrists Dems argued "was up for debate"? Abortion. Before Americans were forced to see the reality of right-wing policy in action. We can go back and forth and back and forth about the ideal democratic strategy all you want, but there is a discrete (and seemingly growing) cohort of likely Dem voters here in Texas, and perhaps in other border states (upper middle class college educated suburban white and South Asian people, let me be clear on that), who genuinely have bloodthirsty opinions on border policy. For instance, there was a (very, very overblown) story last year about Salvadoran (or Honduran) youth gangs recruiting out of a local high school and the local discourse was a competition of who could propose the violation of more basic human rights. These are voters in a county that has moved from 65/33 in 2012 to 51/47 in 2020 (largely because they've abandoned Trump's GOP), and any Democratic path to a full Texas flip runs through these people and their opinions on immigration 1
dabunique Posted October 9 Posted October 9 So Miss Milton is in a hurry. She should make landfall around 9-11 my bestie is in Babcock Ranch jus north of fort myers and it's gettin ugly fort myers beach once again is flooded jus like Ian. I was jus there last month and they were jus gettin back on track
Onyxmage Posted October 9 Posted October 9 (edited) 32 minutes ago, wastedpotential said: It could just be my admittedly suburban and overwhelmingly white/south asian county freaking out about seeing the wrong kind of people of color walking on the street, but there's definitely a pernicious sentiment in the air. After those fake stories about the gangs in Aurora first started making waves I heard a few "we're the next target for the smugglers and cartels" arguments and I had a really hard time trying to convince people that was fake thank god that got swallowed up by the Springfield mess because I think the rhetoric to come out of that could've become reeeeeally nasty really quickly Focusing on people who are a lost cause is pointless. You cant fix stupid. Our job is not to convince these people about facts its to get as many people out to vote as possible. Edited October 9 by Onyxmage
Relampago. Posted October 9 Posted October 9 I understand the critiques of Harris and largely agree with them, but I'm curious as to what the plan should be then? One thing I've struggled with this election is balancing my disagreements with Harris and the Democratic Party with my own values and ideals. But ultimately, I've decided that the best way forward living in a swing state is to vote for Harris and hope that she wins so that there is a rejection of something much worse. I think many of us agree that she could do more and should do more, but the reality is she is the "better" of the two options despite being hard to distinguish on certain topics, i.e. immigration. That being said, under a Harris administration I don't see as much pushback against leftist policies. If Harris is called radical, I can only imagine what policies in here being discussed would be called. And there is where I begin to break from my fellow progressives online. I've said it before, but the presidency is far more than just policy. It's a position of power where words do matter. And is Harris always great with her words? No. But she isn't saying that migrants are eating dogs and cats, hurricanes are being created by weather machines, elections are being stolen, and other messages that are unraveling the foundation of American society. It is easy to point out Harris's flaws and understand how to move forward from them. I don't even know where to begin discussing with people how climate change is responsible for hurricanes when they believe in HAARP machines. I don't know where to begin discussing why we shouldn't be bombing "sh*thole" countries and why doing so will not benefit the US in the long run, when those people are seen as subhuman. Harris at least acknowledges climate change and the Palestinian people as victims. Is this enough? No. But it is a foundation to build off of and prevents us from being totally off base with what reality is. So my question is, what is the plan? I recognize Harris won't have a senate to push her plans through, but would a better option be to allow Trump to pack the courts? It's been said numerous times that Democrats have no path forward in the senate, but does this mean we should give up and let said courts become completely opposed to the idea of anything we are trying to achieve? I don't even believe this court would have let the ACA stand in any way, let alone M4A. I believe in critiquing Harris and the democratic party. What I don't understand is what the solution would be if not to support her and hope that a more progressive challenger rises again. This is precisely why I struggle with 3rd parties. It's perfectly fine to critique Democrats, and they SHOULD. But there needs to be a balance of critique and also understanding that Democrats are not wholly evil and sometimes do get things slightly right. We shouldn't settle, but saying **** them over and over is not only pedantic, it's actively driving away people who could otherwise be convinced that yes, Dems are alright but we can have better. That's kinda why Bernie was so successful in his campaign, beyond popular policy, he wasn't just a sour soul bent on endlessly critiquing the Democratic Party without nuance nor did he turn away Republicans as solely racist, lost souls who could never be redeemed. I say all this with an open mind and open heart, but I'm not understanding what the agenda is here. I also don't expect one single person to have all the answers. But I'm hearing a lot of "A Vote for Kamala is a Vote for Trump!" which is just not true by any means. Harris's policy failures aside, there is so much more to the presidency than just that. And while I do support 3rd party voters because no one should be voting for something they do not believe in and voting 3rd party will hopefully give way to these party's rising in power, I do not feel that I have that luxury living in a swing state. So I do what I must with what I have. I just hope others are thinking with the same strategy in mind. 7 3
Lightbringer007 Posted October 9 Posted October 9 5 minutes ago, Vermillion said: Oh….nevermind... Quick someone tell Kamala to go on Roblox & Dress To Impress! 4
Communion Posted October 9 Posted October 9 (edited) 32 minutes ago, wastedpotential said: We can go back and forth and back and forth about the ideal democratic strategy all you want, but there is a discrete (and seemingly growing) cohort of likely Dem voters here in Texas, and perhaps in other border states (upper middle class college educated suburban white and South Asian people, let me be clear on that), who genuinely have bloodthirsty opinions on border policy. For instance, there was a (very, very overblown) story last year about Salvadoran (or Honduran) youth gangs recruiting out of a local high school and the local discourse was a competition of who could propose the violation of more basic human rights. These are voters in a county that has moved from 65/33 in 2012 to 51/47 in 2020 (largely because they've abandoned Trump's GOP), and any Democratic path to a full Texas flip runs through these people and their opinions on immigration This is a fallacy given that Dems are giving 1/6th the money to Allred than they are giving to someone set to lose bigly like Jon Tester. Dems aren't trying to win Texas. There is just no meaningful definition of popularism - no matter what insane people like Matt Yglesias say - that defends running against things like the below issues: *States that allow undocumented migrants to have driver licenses: 19 states + DC **States that allow undocumented migrants access to CHIP or emergency coverage under Medicaid: 22 states + DC (x) ***States that allow undocumented migrants to pay in-state tuition rates when paying for college: 25 states + DC (x) * - includes NEVADA **- includes MICHIGAN (+TEXAS) ***- includes ARIZONA (+TEXAS) These policies are the law of the land in so many states that the above represent anywhere on each issue from 50% to 67% of the country. Kamala Harris should not be so far-right she's running against immigration policy that two-thirds of the nation supports. Edited October 9 by Communion 1
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