JBJT2786 Posted September 4 Posted September 4 11 minutes ago, heckinglovato said: Is it maybe that you're refusing to answer a hypothetical question because it would push you into confronting the reality that American Democrats (who allegedly support Palestine/Palestinians) still value their domestic policy over the lives of Palestinians? Do you realize I'm supposed to value the lives of my own family and friends before the lives of others? The Democrats should be focused on domestic policy because that's why we voted for them in the first place!!!! ย And again it's a scenario I'm not needing to think of because I live in a democracy.ย A shitty one but a democracy nonetheless. And you know the answer already (of course not) so it's a dumb question. ย You said it yourself in the thread, you had to deal with the USs support of Israel all your life. My question to you is do you really think anything is gonna change regardless of who vote for? And if not, they why even cared about who we're voting for if nothing gonna change? 1 2 1
Parachutes Posted September 4 Posted September 4 (edited) double postย Edited September 4 by Parachutes
GhostBox Posted September 4 Posted September 4 Again I've said it before but the normal American voter doesn't give a **** about a policy page on ย a website ๐ 1 1
heckinglovato Posted September 4 Posted September 4 4 minutes ago, Relampago. said: I think this is a fair question more people should consider before getting triggered and shutting down, but my answer is: Definitely not. ย But like I said before, I wouldn't deny any Palestinian protester telling me I'm voting for a genocide, cause I am. I've acknowledged that. But I am voting with the privilege that I have to preserve my own rights, whether Trump will take them or not, the risk is there and unfortunately I'm just not willing to take that risk with the inevitability of one side winning and both sides being pro-genocide.ย ย If Kamala was facilitating the bombing of African Americans in the US, I would lose that self-preservation rationale because even though I am not Black, much like non-Palestinians in Gaza, the US under a Kamala administration will gladly kill indiscriminately to achieve their goal, so I cannot be certain I wouldn't be killed along with African Americans as collateral.ย ย To go even further, if Kamala were only targeting Muslims in Europe and the EU was permitting this in a strange parallel universe, I would still have to vote no because that massive change in the status quo would likely cause worldwide instability that wouldn't benefit me in any way, with Europe being leveled.ย ย The Middle East being leveled isโฆ the status quo. A disgusting pill to swallow, and one I wish to see disappear. I know the US will inevitably have to pay the price for the atrocities it committed and the enemies it's created. But there's a side of me that operates in ideals and a side of me that operates with the reality I'm faced with. I feel in this instance, I simply must vote for Kamala given that I live in a swing state and I am a young male voter. However, if someone else were to scream names of the victims of Israel's disregard for human life or tell me they're refusing to vote for Kamala because they can't support genocide, I wouldn't argue with either. Use your vote and your voice how you wish, and if you're advocating against genocide with it, then I 100% support that and wouldn't try to convince someone not supporting a genocide state to vote for said state maintaining power. I respect an honest answer that I wish others could admit to confronting.ย ย One that disgusts me for dismissing the ethnic cleansing of my people as status quo, but an honest one nonetheless. 2 2 1
ClashAndBurn Posted September 4 Posted September 4 2 minutes ago, JBJT2786 said: The Democrats should be focused on domestic policy because that's why we voted for them in the first place!!!! Except they're not. When it comes to domestic policy, they are completely paralyzed because there is always a rotating villain in their own party that aligns more with Republicans and votes a certain way to make sure that progress is never achieved. Democrats purposely watered down Obamacare in order to seek bipartisan votes and they earned not even a single vote of Republican support, leaving us with an ineffective zombie of a healthcare system that only just barely helps enough people that nobody wants to rip it out and overhaul it the way it's desperately needed. 2 1 1
JBJT2786 Posted September 4 Posted September 4 Just now, GhostBox said: Again I've said it before but the normal American voter doesn't give a **** about a policy page on ย a website ๐ This!!! The fact people are acting like this is a major issue highlights the spin being thrown at her campaign to see what sticks and knocks the momentum down a peg. ย I seriously doubt this'll do damage in the long run. I just can't wait for the debate at this point cuz hopefully her eviscerating Trump on stage during the debate might change the tide completely.ย 1 1
ClashAndBurn Posted September 4 Posted September 4 "I can't WAIT to see her eviscerate Trump on the debate stage!" ย She's been horrendously BAD in every debate she's ever participated in. And that rehearsed "that little girl was me" line turned out to be a completely fake throwaway line that meant absolutely nothing the moment she accepted being the runningmate of someone she called a segregationist on stage. ย 1 1 1
JBJT2786 Posted September 4 Posted September 4 3 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said: Except they're not. When it comes to domestic policy, they are completely paralyzed because there is always a rotating villain in their own party that aligns more with Republicans and votes a certain way to make sure that progress is never achieved. Democrats purposely watered down Obamacare in order to seek bipartisan votes and they earned not even a single vote of Republican support, leaving us with an ineffective zombie of a healthcare system that only just barely helps enough people that nobody wants to rip it out and overhaul it the way it's desperately needed. I know all this. My response is literally to them asking if thinking I'm valuing my own family and friends safety and self preservation over foreign lives is a bad thing..
GhostBox Posted September 4 Posted September 4 Nate Silvers dooming about the state polling really doenst make much sense. Like today he is saying her standing in Michigan is dwindling as fast as PA yet she just got a +5 poll from CNN ๐ ย I now he's still putting alot of weight on the right leaning polls but come on ๐
Relampago. Posted September 4 Posted September 4 2 minutes ago, heckinglovato said: I respect an honest answer that I wish others could admit to confronting.ย ย One that disgusts me for dismissing the ethnic cleansing of my people as status quo, but an honest one nonetheless. It's sad, I don't have anything to say to that in my defense. It's the reality and it tastes like dirt to say. If the status quo were elsewhere, like Ukraine for example if Russia was a US ally, my answer would remain the same. I just want to be clear that while I have no personal prejudice against Palestinians, I want to be open with how I acknowledge what my vote means and what it saysโ that bombing the Middle East, Palestine in this instance, is the status quo for both major parties in the US. I don't get to just vote for my own preservation then wipe my hands clean, even if I disagree with the candidate I vote for. ย I'll keep supporting protests in my area and donating to Gaza relief. I hope one day that's no longer needed, but I respect you calling all of this out and being persistent in that. We have the privilege of feeling uncomfortable at worst when we have these conversations, and we should. Others don't get that privilege. 2 1
GhostBox Posted September 4 Posted September 4 (edited) 2 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said: "I can't WAIT to see her eviscerate Trump on the debate stage!" ย She's been horrendously BAD in every debate she's ever participated in. And that rehearsed "that little girl was me" line turned out to be a completely fake throwaway line that meant absolutely nothing the moment she accepted being the runningmate of someone she called a segregationist on stage. ย She did pretty good against Pence.ย ย I don't think the debates going to be some big home run for Harris because frankly the media won't allow that.ย Edited September 4 by GhostBox 4
Communion Posted September 4 Posted September 4 17 minutes ago, JBJT2786 said: Do you realize I'm supposed to value the lives of my own family and friends before the lives of others? This is just a refusal to engage in the reality that all Americans engage in and benefit from barbarism and hegemony.ย ย Trump could not harm you as deeply as all American leaders harm those abroad, specifically Palestinians.ย ย Americans can vote for whoever.we want without lying to ourselves that our votes are done out of some goodness.ย . Peoppe should question why the people of a nation who maintains its empire status through brute force should not be burdened continously with the rot they help sew and bring about around the world.ย ย Should Russians not be burdened by the reality that their quality of life is contigent on the suffering of Ukrainians? 5 4
bad guy Posted September 4 Posted September 4 I want to hear more from Kamala on what she's going to do with the economy or the border crisis. Like actual policies, not platitudes (there's a difference). I already know her foreign policy will be a disaster so I'm not even gonna bother going down that rabbit hole. If she can't give any concrete policy that makes sense, I'll probably just stick to my local elections which are much more tangible anyway (and should taken as seriously as the presidential race).ย 1
ClashAndBurn Posted September 4 Posted September 4 2 minutes ago, GhostBox said: She did pretty good against Pence.ย ย I don't think the debates going to be some big home run for Harris because frankly the media won't allow that.ย She wasn't especially compelling back then either. Pence himself wasn't exactly an astute debater, and they were both kind of overshadowed by a fly. 1 1 1
XDNA Posted September 4 Posted September 4 31 minutes ago, heckinglovato said: Is it maybe that you're refusing to answer a hypothetical question because it would push you into confronting the reality that American Democrats (who allegedly support Palestine/Palestinians) still value their domestic policy over the lives of Palestinians? ย I'm not accusing you of that personally (don't want the mods flagging me for being uncivil), but I'll leave it as food for thought that if the genocide was occurring in your backyard (or even somewhere like Paris), the response of the American leftist electorate would be significantly different. Palestine has never been a left or right issue in the US. The standard American policy is a two-state system. Now, some activists are trying to make it a "left" issue, but it really hasn't been before. 1
JBJT2786 Posted September 4 Posted September 4 8 minutes ago, Communion said: Americans can vote for whoever.we want without lying to ourselves that our votes are done out of some goodness Where did I say I'm doing out of goodness? I'm literally pointing out my selfishness and ya in here like " well you're in denial from world issues" ย I know world issues and I donate to Gaza relief and at the protests. But like a normal human being, my self persevation and the safety of my family and friends come first. My voting should effect here first and then overseas. And it's not only for president ( which I wish the average American pays more attention but alas) ย ย The continued pressure for our government to change stance on Israel is gonna cause change not a Presidential election.ย 5
Relampago. Posted September 4 Posted September 4 I wish more politicians would address climate change in the same breath as the immigration crisis. Climate migration is real, and is only going to get worse.ย ย Climate change is very easily the biggest issue above every single other issue possible because it is the only one that affects everyone and everything, and that includes all the issues we argue about: Foreign affairs, immigration, social issues, economy, etc.ย ย And yet the only one who really talks about it is Trump and the birds hitting turbines. ย 7 3 1
Gottasadae Posted September 4 Posted September 4 45 minutes ago, dabunique said: ย No more wine for him, I guessย ย 1
ATRL Moderator Bloo Posted September 4 ATRL Moderator Posted September 4 14 minutes ago, XDNA said: Palestine has never been a left or right issue in the US. The standard American policy is a two-state system. Now, some activists are trying to make it a "left" issue, but it really hasn't been before. This is not true. The actual left (i.e., not liberalism) in the United States has been talking about the occupation of Palestine for decades. Malcolm X was talking about it during the Civil Rights Movement of the 1950s and 60s. https://read.dukeupress.edu/social-text/article/37/3/47/140419/Spirit-in-Opposition-Malcolm-X-and-the-Question-of ย If by "left" you mean mainstream Democrats, well, mainstream Democrats are a center-right party on a standard political spectrum. And, yes, along American partisan lines this hasn't been an issue because Democrats and Republicans both unilaterally support the imperialism that Israel has overseen for decades. So they'd rather draw lines of division around other cultural issues like abortion, race, LGBTQ+ identity, etc. 3 4
family.guy123 Posted September 4 Posted September 4 19 minutes ago, Armani? said: No, and I don't think the race is that close here to have to do desperately appeal to Republicans with these parody adsย ย It will very likely be a +8 lead for her at minimum, Kildee was +10 2 years ago. Just stick to the economic policies & abortion lol Alright, I do disagree, based on my 15-20 minutes of research, those issues don't impact ย Michiganians, but you live there so. Regardless, my original downvote came from my belief that a politicians goal shouldn't be to win an election, but to represent the views of as many as their constituents as possible. If they do the best job at that, an election win will be the result. ย I also believe that most voters don't really see themselves as being a Democrat or a Republican per se. So I disagree with you framing it as her having to appeal to Republicans. Just because you see these issues as appealing to "Republicans", doesn't mean that everybody they appeal to has Republican views on other issues. I agree that she shouldn't HAVE to appeal to "Republicans". But imo she SHOULD try to appeal to as many of her constituents as possible, including those who may hold some Republican values.ย 3
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