Communion Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 (edited) 58 minutes ago, Kassi said: That is the same rationale applied to keeping Pelosi as leader despite 2010 midterms. Under Bush, she WON Democrats those 1000+ seats by targeting red districts, recruiting challengers, raising unprecedented amounts of money, blasting Bush & Republicans, and shaping the Democrats’ message going into 2006, I really don't know how to tell you this any other way but no one cares. No one cares about this weird affluent idol worship. No one thinks Pelosi is a success besides gay men who make six-figures and have dreams where they're allowed to do a Purge on the homeless people of San Francisco. This is why it has to be repeated over and over that you're removed from the average American. You keep citing tactical wins or numerical wins on paper despite that anyone who isn't sheltered from the real-world impact of political decisions knows these very actions set Democrats onto the losing path they are on now. Politicians are supposed to shape the public into their direction. Re-education in much of the world is a seen as a good thing. You want to be able to move public consciousness. The GOP literally has made it their base strategy. I screamed when I saw you before try to argue the Overton window wasn't a real concept and your only defense for why it wasn't was incoherent gobbledegook. Gotta lie about things that poke holes on failed neoliberal ideology, I guess! You keep celebrating and framing as political genius Democrats moving the party to meet the largest and most jarring shortcomings of the public. Whereas the GOP shapes the minds of its followers, Dems allows its desire for literally any followers amongst its failing and collapsing infrastructure to shape them. A Republican isn't a hardline anti-abortioner? Then the GOP makes that person such with constant ideological-commitment and pounding. A Democrat isn't a hardline pro-choicer? Pelosi gives them $50k in donations from her personal stock purchase profits and says "you're who we need!". Biden's objective failure is not just his own failure. It's Nancy's failure. It's people like you's failure. This claim of "most Americans are strict ideological moderates" is as true as Santa or the tooth fairy being real. We should be laughing at people like you who continue to peddle such a lie and champion it as some electoral strategy. Most people are not ideological; they're motivated by material reality around them and various other psychological factors like trust. And most voters are not hardliners. They can be swayed if things are framed as in their favor. You can't scream "we don't need progressive policies, we need political propaganda!" when the entire political ecosystem and its propaganda is aimed at stopping progressive policies and Dem leadership being abject losers to allow such. Edited July 17, 2022 by Communion
Kassi Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 1 hour ago, Communion said: I really don't know how to tell you this any other way but no one cares. No one cares about this weird affluent idol worship. No one thinks Pelosi is a success besides gay men who make six-figures and have dreams where they're allowed to do a Purge on the homeless people of San Francisco. This is why it has to be repeated over and over that you're removed from the average American. You keep citing tactical wins or numerical wins on paper despite that anyone who isn't sheltered from the real-world impact of political decisions knows these very actions set Democrats onto the losing path they are on now. Politicians are supposed to shape the public into their direction. Re-education in much of the world is a seen as a good thing. You want to be able to move public consciousness. The GOP literally has made it their base strategy. I screamed when I saw you before try to argue the Overton window wasn't a real concept and your only defense for why it wasn't was incoherent gobbledegook. Gotta lie about things that poke holes on failed neoliberal ideology, I guess! That's fine. No one "has to care". Those are simply the facts: Democrats experienced two consecutive wave elections followed by a reversion back to the mean after taking a swing at Big Policy. Debunking false narratives has little to do with idol worship. The reason it matters is because having informed discussions first requires us to stipulate to a set of FACTS, not loose talking points with no basis in reality. In fact, false narratives, like inventing a completely imaginary version of Bernie, are more indicative of idol worship than pulling references from the historical record. If the Overton Window as characterized by leftists was real, Democrats moving for M4A would cause Republicans to support Obamacare. That is obviously not the case. Bernie ran on M4A in 2016, while McCain barely thwarted the repeal of Obamacare in 2017. Again, if you care about facts, here is how the Mackinac Center, the originators of the Overton Window, describe it themselves: Quote The core concept is that politicians are limited in what policy ideas they can support — they generally only pursue policies that are widely accepted throughout society as legitimate policy options. These policies lie inside the Overton Window. Other policy ideas exist, but politicians risk losing popular support if they champion these ideas. These policies lie outside the Overton Window. But the Overton Window can both shift and expand, either increasing or shrinking the number of ideas politicians can support without unduly risking their electoral support. [...] All of this suggests that politicians are more followers than they are leaders — it’s the rest of us who ultimately determine the types of policies they’ll get behind. It also implies that our social institutions — families, workplaces, friends, media, churches, voluntary associations, think tanks, schools, charities, and many other phenomena that establish and reinforce societal norms — are more important to shaping our politics than we typically credit them for. https://www.mackinac.org/OvertonWindow Literally cuts against your conception that "politicians are supposed to shape the public into their direction". But yeah, it's me who's coming with incoherent gobbledegook. As for the GOP using your made up version of the Overton Window as their base strategy, we can literally look at immigration to track how badly it backfired. Trump’s nasty rhetoric, his wink-nudge stuff with white nationalists, his dumbass wall, his child separation policies, his Stephen Miller'd crackdowns on legal migration of skilled workers, etc. all made the GOP seem like xenophobic maniacs whose approach was grounded in cruelty and hysteria. They literally LOST ground on immigration as a result of their extreme position. Consider the Overton Window UNSHIFTED. Anyways, the original point is a bit banal and simply ends up emphasizing the importance of having arguments that are persuasive. The mutant leftist strain of the Overton Window, by contrast, is inauthentic and has no evidence behind it. It only serves as an ad hoc rationalization for sloppy advocacy while also offering a ready excuse for not picking fights with dumb ideas “on your side” (like most of AOC and Bernie's nonsense) on the grounds that they are doing useful Overton Window work.
Kassi Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 2 hours ago, Communion said: A Republican isn't a hardline anti-abortioner? Then the GOP makes that person such with constant ideological-commitment and pounding. A Democrat isn't a hardline pro-choicer? Pelosi gives them $50k in donations from her personal stock purchase profits and says "you're who we need!". Biden's objective failure is not just his own failure. It's Nancy's failure. It's people like you's failure. This claim of "most Americans are strict ideological moderates" is as true as Santa or the tooth fairy being real. We should be laughing at people like you who continue to peddle such a lie and champion it as some electoral strategy. Most people are not ideological; they're motivated by material reality around them and various other psychological factors like trust. And most voters are not hardliners. They can be swayed if things are framed as in their favor. You can't scream "we don't need progressive policies, we need political propaganda!" when the entire political ecosystem and its propaganda is aimed at stopping progressive policies and Dem leadership being abject losers to allow such. You're just not right. I'm sorry to be blunt like that, but you keep saying things that are DEMONSTRABLY untrue. U.S. Senators Susan Collins (R-ME) and Lisa Murkowski (R-AK) have even introduced legislation that would codify Roe, similar in scope, but lesser in degree, of course, to Democrat's WHPA. And there's been nary a peep out of GOP Congressional leaders regarding their pro-choice stances. How can anyone believe anything you write, when you invent facts and clearly don't know what you're talking about?
Communion Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 9 minutes ago, Kassi said: Those are simply the facts: Democrats experienced two consecutive wave elections followed by a reversion back to the mean after taking a swing at Big Policy. None of this is true. Dems shifted their strategy to frame themselves as Republican-lite. They didn't "bash" GWB for being immoral. They framed him as an extremist gone awry and how much of the sensible~ ideas of conservatism were offered in their without the 'fringe' of the GOP. Is this all starting to sound familiar? They "picked up" seats they were never going to hold because they desired a volatile coalition - as the Dem base is inherently as odds with the goals of conservatism. Your politicians keep demanding we as the base placate in hopes we will inspire Republicans to swing our way but it just doesn't happen. You'll get these ~moderate Republican suburbanites~ for a cycle or two and then they jump ship and join back with the evangelicals when they realize it's time for them to pay their fair share in taxes. Again, is this all starting to sound familiar to you? 26 minutes ago, Kassi said: If the Overton Window as characterized by leftists was real What does this even mean? "...as characterized by leftists"? The existence of the Overton window does not mean there cannot be high polarization, ie: the window itself is elongated. Let alone that it seems to serve your economic interests to deny how the US has long be a largely polarized *right-ward* nation economically. Literally we've gone from key Democratic figures shaming mothers on welfare to now present-day leaders seeing their presidency collapse on itself for refusing to give into the base's demand to expanded welfare. What do you call that? 33 minutes ago, Kassi said: If the Overton Window as characterized by leftists was real, Democrats moving for M4A would cause Republicans to support Obamacare. No, it would not. Your argument is false *and knowingly false* because "Democrat" and "Republican" are not the default grouping of Americans. By pretending they are, you obfuscate that the number of Republicans becomes smaller and smaller of a portion of the greater population as time moves on. Why lie like this? Why try to make the point of "well Republicans aren't becoming more progressive??? HMM!!!" while ignoring that the portion of society that Republicans make-up is dwindling? Even young Republicans show support for progressive economic policy. Ironically, the number of people who identify as either Democrat and Republican are starting to dwindle because of this reality that the American populace is more progressive and this shifting of the Overton window. It'd be one thing to make the argument that the Overton Window as a means to measure the population's desires is a poor means to discern political possibility in a federation of states where the fringe holds disproportional political power and representation, but that's not what you're doing. Because no one would ever vote for Biden on the basis he would win over Utah or somewhere. You didn't promise Biden could win over the fringe of the right - you argued he'd win over the mainstream of the right because it was the "real middle America" and he failed. Trump won more Republicans in 2020 than he did in 2016. 53 minutes ago, Kassi said: As for the GOP using your made up version of the Overton Window as their base strategy At this point, the brazen illiteracy is tiring. No one said the GOP uses the Overton Window in any way. It was quite literally said to you that they themselves demand ideological allegiance, even when their views are unpopular. That is how they continually shift their party rightward and more extreme even when their ideas don't have initial support amongst the non-partisan conservatives because the party leadership doubles-down. Showing me a graph where Republicans *don't change* with the shift in views because their leadership demands they stay consistent on their ideological mission while showing how Dem voters have changed, much thanks to progressive voices dominating and being heard over Dem leadership proves the entire argument you're denying. You literally already have conceded what is being argued. The GOP is united. Dems are divided. We're at odds because your personal biases and material investments mean you'll demand we unite around the out-of-touch and abject losers who are the Democratic leadership while anyone who's not insane demands we finally rally behind popular policies and views the base supports and make that the central view of the party. Your big tent failed. So many people have and will continue to die because of this nonsense "big tent" worldview. At one point, you would think there'd be some humility over supporting such awful politics.
Communion Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 44 minutes ago, Kassi said: You're just not right. I'm sorry to be blunt like that, but you keep saying things that are DEMONSTRABLY untrue. U.S. Senators Susan Collins (R-ME) and Lisa Murkowski (R-AK) have even introduced legislation that would codify Roe, similar in scope You mean the same two women who voted for all of the Supreme Court justices Trump put up to undo Roe V Wade because their party and Trump made them? While Biden is in comparison giving lifetime appointments to anti-abortion judges on the state level as "a sign of friendship" to Mitch McConnell? That you think it helps your case in citing two women who pre-Trump's re-centering of evangelicals were more lenient on abortion versus now tightening and *shifting* right-ward on abortion post-Trump says it all really. The Collins-Murkowski bill you mention literally is written with a myriad of loop holes allowing *furthering restrictions earlier like at 15 weeks and earlier* while previously they had voted against in years prior attempts to ban abortion after 24 and 20 weeks. 59 minutes ago, Kassi said: And there's been nary a peep out of GOP Congressional leaders regarding their pro-choice stances. Adding a million caveats like the bold won't stop everyone from reading this thread and rolling their eyes every time we have to endure another pointless post of you lying, fyi! "The GOP doesn't ostracize its pro-abortion members!!!!" - literally who are you trying to convince?
Kassi Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 43 minutes ago, Communion said: None of this is true. Dems shifted their strategy to frame themselves as Republican-lite. They didn't "bash" GWB for being immoral. They framed him as an extremist gone awry and how much of the sensible~ ideas of conservatism were offered in their without the 'fringe' of the GOP. Is this all starting to sound familiar? Wrong! In 2006, after maneuvering to a hardline anti-Iraq war position and flat out refusing to co-sponsor or vote on bipartisan bills, Democrats then laid out a 100-Hour Plan before the midterms to showcase how DIFFERENT their governing coalition would be over current Republicans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100-Hour_Plan This was in addition to heated rhetoric aimed at, wait for it... bashing GWB for being immoral: Quote October 2006 LESLEY STAHL: You have called your Republican colleagues immoral, corrupt. You say they’re running a criminal enterprise. NANCY PELOSI: Well, actually, when I called them those names I was being gentle. There are much worse things I could have said about them. And that was just a precursor to the 2008 elections where they went full court press with a progressive agenda. There was little ambiguity as to the differences between Obama/Democrats and McCain/GOPs positions on the issues. The two platforms could not have been more un-alike: https://www.nytimes.com/elections/2008/president/issues/party-platforms/index.html You are, once again LYING or WHOLLY UNINFORMED.
Kassi Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 1 hour ago, Communion said: They "picked up" seats they were never going to hold because they desired a volatile coalition - as the Dem base is inherently as odds with the goals of conservatism. Your politicians keep demanding we as the base placate in hopes we will inspire Republicans to swing our way but it just doesn't happen. You'll get these ~moderate Republican suburbanites~ for a cycle or two and then they jump ship and join back with the evangelicals when they realize it's time for them to pay their fair share in taxes. Again, is this all starting to sound familiar to you? Wrong! They picked up seats they were never going to hold because they are at a geographic disadvantage. Literally everyone who follows politics knows by now that Democratic voters are increasingly concentrated in urban cities, leaving more rural districts in the hands of Republican politicians who reflect the social values of those constituents. Study after study has borne out just how mucg bigger Democratic margins have to be in order to control the House. And that's before you've factored in the Senate where, if every state had 2 senators that matched their partisan lean, and you gave the evenly split ones to Democrats, Republicans would have 54 seats. It's mathematically impossible for Dems to even have a Senate majority through blue and swing states only. This is all FACT. If it was easy "oh so easy!" to win red districts on progressivism alone, Justice Democrats wouldn't be wasting their money on securing only deep blue seats.
ClashAndBurn Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 15 minutes ago, Kassi said: Wrong! In 2006, after maneuvering to a hardline anti-Iraq war position and flat out refusing to co-sponsor or vote on bipartisan bills, Democrats then laid out a 100-Hour Plan before the midterms to showcase how DIFFERENT their governing coalition would be over current Republicans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100-Hour_Plan This was in addition to heated rhetoric aimed at, wait for it... bashing GWB for being immoral: And that was just a precursor to the 2008 elections where they went full court press with a progressive agenda. There was little ambiguity as to the differences between Obama/Democrats and McCain/GOPs positions on the issues. The two platforms could not have been more un-alike: https://www.nytimes.com/elections/2008/president/issues/party-platforms/index.html You are, once again LYING or WHOLLY UNINFORMED. Pelosi refused to do the right thing and impeach GWB over Iraq, because plenty of her colleagues stood right behind him and supported his illegal war enthusiastically. Hillary and Biden in particular come to mind Even though said illegal war was far worse morally and substantially than… a phone call
Communion Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 3 minutes ago, Kassi said: In 2006, after maneuvering to a hardline anti-Iraq war position You're literally proving what I'm saying as true. Framing GWB as a fringe neo-con to scapegoat him for Iraq despite it being Democrats who were unabashed champions of the invasion, while promoting Republican-lite economic policy. Joe Biden in 2007 on the need to raise the age of retirement: Quote In his 2007 interview with Russert as a presidential candidate, the “Meet the Press” host asked, “Senator, we have a deficit. We have Social Security and Medicare looming. The number of people on Social Security and Medicare is now 40 million people. It’s going to be 80 million in 15 years. Would you consider looking at those programs, age of eligibility…” “Absolutely,” Biden said. “ … cost of living, put it all on the table.” “The answer is absolutely,” Biden said, reminding Russert that earlier in his career, he had been part of the small number of senators who had come up with the deal that raised the retirement age, and promised to protect each other from voters outraged at the cuts. https://theintercept.com/2020/01/13/biden-cuts-social-security/ What do you think showing Pelosi claiming to want to reverse the Bush Tax Cuts in 2006 when she had no power to does while purposefully ignoring that she was a crucial figure in getting them renewed in 2010 and them being made permanent in 2012? Your example of Pelosi showing how Democrats are *different* economically from Republicans is by her being a deficit and budget hawk and implementing something as harmful to progressive policies as PAYGO?? Your example of Pelosi as not courting the rich elites of the GOP is her taking on Heritage Foundation ideas??
Communion Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 10 minutes ago, Kassi said: Wrong! They picked up seats they were never going to hold because they are at a geographic disadvantage. Literally everyone who follows politics knows by now that Democratic voters are increasingly concentrated in urban cities, leaving more rural districts in the hands of Republican politicians who reflect the social values of those constituents. "Rural = bigots who'll never vote Dems, suburban = good and the future oof our base!" Where did I hear this before? Again, your favorite politicians ruined the class divide and removed it from being in Dems' favor by peddling Reagan-lite ideas for many more terms. Poor people across any portion of America historically voted for Democrats. Only now as we see the fruits of neoliberalism come to fruition has it become clearer and clearer that corporate enabling by Dem elites has lost Dems their most reliable base. It was your neoliberal heroes from Bill Clinton to Pelosi to Bill's murderous wife who destroyed the party and made it the embarrassment it is today. At one point, surely shame and embarrassment takes over? "DEMOCRATS WERE ALWAYS PROGRESSIVE! BERNIE DIDN'T CHANGE OR SHIFT ****!!!" If you want to have a new program, figure out a way to pay for it without raising taxes. --Senator Harry Reid (D-NV), Incoming Senate Majority Leader Democrats are committed to ending years of irresponsible budget policies that have produced historic deficits. --Representative Nancy Pelosi (D-CA), Incoming House Speaker
Mean Trees Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 It's been posted before I know but with the Pelosi discussion, I thought I would add it again.
Kassi Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 1 hour ago, Communion said: What does this even mean? "...as characterized by leftists"? The existence of the Overton window does not mean there cannot be high polarization, ie: the window itself is elongated. Let alone that it seems to serve your economic interests to deny how the US has long be a largely polarized *right-ward* nation economically. Literally we've gone from key Democratic figures shaming mothers on welfare to now present-day leaders seeing their presidency collapse on itself for refusing to give into the base's demand to expanded welfare. What do you call that? It means, your pop culture version of the Overton Window doesn't exist. And I clearly lay out what does exist: On 7/14/2022 at 11:12 PM, Kassi said: The only relevant theory is the median voter theorem, whereby politicians gravitate toward the position occupied by their median voters. And Democratic voters today are much more open to big government policies, many of which have been floating around the Democratic party for decades, but without the coalition to ensure passage. It's that shift in left-leaning voter sentiment (largely precipitated by the 2008 financial crash, see: Occupy Wallstreet Movement) that even gave Bernie a platform, not the other way around. It's like trying to say the right-wing movement didn't exist until Trump ran, when the right has always been trying to ban abortions and steal elections (see: Al Gore). Similarly, Democrats have always been trying to pass single payer, even as far back as 30 years ago under the Clinton administration. That conception is much more in line with the original definition of the Overton Window than your misconception that "politicians are supposed to shape the public into their direction". You were, once again, WRONG! I don't know what you're talking about since just about every Democrat from FDR to Clinton to Obama to Biden has supported expansion of the welfare state. But if you're intent on tying this to the Overton Window, then consider the window on welfare UNSHIFTED. Democrats still support it, Republicans still oppose it. 2 hours ago, Communion said: No, it would not. Your argument is false *and knowingly false* because "Democrat" and "Republican" are not the default grouping of Americans. By pretending they are, you obfuscate that the number of Republicans becomes smaller and smaller of a portion of the greater population as time moves on. Why lie like this? Why try to make the point of "well Republicans aren't becoming more progressive??? HMM!!!" while ignoring that the portion of society that Republicans make-up is dwindling? Even young Republicans show support for progressive economic policy. Ironically, the number of people who identify as either Democrat and Republican are starting to dwindle because of this reality that the American populace is more progressive and this shifting of the Overton window. It'd be one thing to make the argument that the Overton Window as a means to measure the population's desires is a poor means to discern political possibility in a federation of states where the fringe holds disproportional political power and representation, but that's not what you're doing. Because no one would ever vote for Biden on the basis he would win over Utah or somewhere. You didn't promise Biden could win over the fringe of the right - you argued he'd win over the mainstream of the right because it was the "real middle America" and he failed. Trump won more Republicans in 2020 than he did in 2016. At this point, the brazen illiteracy is tiring. No one said the GOP uses the Overton Window in any way. It was quite literally said to you that they themselves demand ideological allegiance, even when their views are unpopular. That is how they continually shift their party rightward and more extreme even when their ideas don't have initial support amongst the non-partisan conservatives because the party leadership doubles-down. Showing me a graph where Republicans *don't change* with the shift in views because their leadership demands they stay consistent on their ideological mission while showing how Dem voters have changed, much thanks to progressive voices dominating and being heard over Dem leadership proves the entire argument you're denying. You literally already have conceded what is being argued. The GOP is united. Dems are divided. We're at odds because your personal biases and material investments mean you'll demand we unite around the out-of-touch and abject losers who are the Democratic leadership while anyone who's not insane demands we finally rally behind popular policies and views the base supports and make that the central view of the party. Your big tent failed. So many people have and will continue to die because of this nonsense "big tent" worldview. At one point, you would think there'd be some humility over supporting such awful politics. Again, we're talking about your wrong definition of the Overton Window whereby: Politicians are supposed to shape the public into their direction AND Re-education in much of the world is a seen as a good thing AND You want to be able to move public consciousness Don't switch up now. Stand behind your opinions. Your argument was clearly that "the GOP shapes the minds of its followers, while Dems allows its desire for literally any followers amongst its failing and collapsing infrastructure to shape them." Republicans aren't shaping anything, they're simply enacting the immigration policies their base wants to see. Which then polarizes everyone else outside of that bubble against their views causing them to lose elections. That is the relevant takeaway from that graph. The Republican Party shifts rightward as whole because their voters are inundated with nonstop political propaganda, that is the source of their cohesion and unity. On the whole, they're dominated by ideologues who are motivated by general philosophies (e.g. small government, christian nationalism, white supremacy), while Democrats represent a coalition of social groups seeking public policies that favor their particular interests. For instance, Democrats can't drop trans issues because they're coalition-oriented. Meanwhile, Republicans simply get to be the voice of white people who live around other white people in rural and suburban areas scaremongering to each other about the Great Replacement Theory. By matter of practical survival, Democrats have to be a "big tent".
Kassi Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 4 hours ago, Communion said: You mean the same two women who voted for all of the Supreme Court justices Trump put up to undo Roe V Wade because their party and Trump made them? While Biden is in comparison giving lifetime appointments to anti-abortion judges on the state level as "a sign of friendship" to Mitch McConnell? That you think it helps your case in citing two women who pre-Trump's re-centering of evangelicals were more lenient on abortion versus now tightening and *shifting* right-ward on abortion post-Trump says it all really. The Collins-Murkowski bill you mention literally is written with a myriad of loop holes allowing *furthering restrictions earlier like at 15 weeks and earlier* while previously they had voted against in years prior attempts to ban abortion after 24 and 20 weeks. Adding a million caveats like the bold won't stop everyone from reading this thread and rolling their eyes every time we have to endure another pointless post of you lying, fyi! "The GOP doesn't ostracize its pro-abortion members!!!!" - literally who are you trying to convince? All this text for what? Are Collins and Murkowski pro-choice? Yes. Have they publicly drafted a bill stating as much? Yes. Has McConnell or McCarthy said anything? No. Using Trump, who has beef with various Republican politicians for non-policy reasons (e.g. like voting for his impeachment) isn't compelling. He will literally attack anyone who doesn't bend the knee to his cause, including GOP leaders like McConnell who brush off the Big Lie or berate leaders like McCarthy who fumble the bag on the Jan 6 Committee investigations. No1currie what he has to say. More candidates who he's endorsed have lost than won. Fact remains, the GOP has two pro-abortion members in its ranks so this little quip... A Republican isn't a hardline anti-abortioner? Then the GOP makes that person such with constant ideological-commitment and pounding. ...is wrong!
Communion Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Kassi said: Republicans aren't shaping anything, they're simply enacting the immigration policies their base wants to see. Which then polarizes everyone else outside of that bubble against their views causing them to lose elections. Except this clearly is what is not happening. They're not losing elections. They keep winning elections because they're giving their base what they want and forcing others along for the ride by making a coalition united in privilege. At this point, you're only denying such because there's incentive for you to keep the clam that people in your six-figure income bracket are viable swing voters for Dems when they're just simply not. You are not the Democratic Party. We are. Edited July 17, 2022 by Communion
Communion Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 1 minute ago, Kassi said: All this text for what? Are Collins and Murkowski pro-life? Yes. Have they publicly drafted a bill stating as much? Yes. I'm glad this Freudian slip shows how out of depth you are. What do you call it when alleged pro-choice Republicans in the matter of a few years go from defending abortion up to 20-24 weeks to then joining their fellow Republicans on harsher 15 week limitations? A shift to the right?
Communion Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 (edited) Corporate Dems: "Dem leadership is NOT out of touch! We were the original Pelosi Progressives before Bernard ever did anything! Learn your history! #clapback #shepersisted!" *flashback to Pelosi and Harry Reid trying to relive the Bill Clinton era and criticizing GWB-era GOP for not taking the deficit into consideration and lacking fiscal responsibility* Corporate Dems: "Thanks to pragmatic progressives like Pelosi, Obama and Biden, the Dem coalition is a strong unified big tent getting what matters done at the end of the day! #votebluenomatterwho" *flashes of graphs over the last 60 years showing that the last 20 years of neoliberalism has cratered Dems' support by Americans living in poverty, who are now more likely to not vote than to vote for Dems* Corporate Dems: "Yes, Biden is now the most unpopular president in history at this point in his presidency, but that just means we have to double-down on our messaging and actually start using propaganda. We've been playing nice but it's time we finally got out our claws #purr #madamevicepresident #madamespeaker " God help us. Edited July 17, 2022 by Communion
ClashAndBurn Posted July 18, 2022 Posted July 18, 2022 It’s amazing how not a single progressive policy has been passed, and yet… it’s still “we need to pivot to the center MORE.” Pelosi Dems are garbage wbk
Kassi Posted July 18, 2022 Posted July 18, 2022 1 hour ago, Communion said: You're literally proving what I'm saying as true. Framing GWB as a fringe neo-con to scapegoat him for Iraq despite it being Democrats who were unabashed champions of the invasion, while promoting Republican-lite economic policy. Joe Biden in 2007 on the need to raise the age of retirement: https://theintercept.com/2020/01/13/biden-cuts-social-security/ What do you think showing Pelosi claiming to want to reverse the Bush Tax Cuts in 2006 when she had no power to does while purposefully ignoring that she was a crucial figure in getting them renewed in 2010 and them being made permanent in 2012? Your example of Pelosi showing how Democrats are *different* economically from Republicans is by her being a deficit and budget hawk and implementing something as harmful to progressive policies as PAYGO?? Your example of Pelosi as not courting the rich elites of the GOP is her taking on Heritage Foundation ideas?? How do you "scapegoat" the man responsible for the war itself? Now you're just defending Bush to spite Democrats and it's a sad look. Don't care about Joe Biden. Pelosi let the Bush tax cuts for the rich expire, including the estate tax, while the ACA had already raised taxes on rich people. Paygo gets waived at the Speaker’s discretion. Pelosi waived it for the ACA and a million other things. It has never blocked progressive legislation before and it never will, it’s a tool for negotiation leverage. Notice how not once did PAYGO come up in all these multi-trillion dollar spending bills (e.g. CARES, FY22 Omnibus Bill, ARP). It’s just for taking a few tax cuts off the table and signaling "fiscal responsible" or, in the case of that article, fiscal irresponsibility by the GOP as they introduce lopsided tax cuts. But nice try.
i spit on haters Posted July 18, 2022 Posted July 18, 2022 1 hour ago, Mean Trees said: It's been posted before I know but with the Pelosi discussion, I thought I would add it again. Had that ***** TREMBLING.
Kassi Posted July 18, 2022 Posted July 18, 2022 2 hours ago, Communion said: "Rural = bigots who'll never vote Dems, suburban = good and the future oof our base!" Where did I hear this before? Again, your favorite politicians ruined the class divide and removed it from being in Dems' favor by peddling Reagan-lite ideas for many more terms. Poor people across any portion of America historically voted for Democrats. Only now as we see the fruits of neoliberalism come to fruition has it become clearer and clearer that corporate enabling by Dem elites has lost Dems their most reliable base. It was your neoliberal heroes from Bill Clinton to Pelosi to Bill's murderous wife who destroyed the party and made it the embarrassment it is today. At one point, surely shame and embarrassment takes over?" "DEMOCRATS WERE ALWAYS PROGRESSIVE! BERNIE DIDN'T CHANGE OR SHIFT ****!!!"y If you want to have a new program, figure out a way to pay for it without raising taxes. --Senator Harry Reid (D-NV), Incoming Senate Majority Leader Democrats are committed to ending years of irresponsible budget policies that have produced historic deficits. --Representative Nancy Pelosi (D-CA), Incoming House Speaker If you want to term social conservatism as bigotry, that's on you. But I'm speaking more broadly from a cultural POV, whether that's pro-gun, pro-life, anti-elitism, or anti-immigration, these people just don't identify with the same political image that resonates with an urban, millennial "coastal elite" crowd, who are all concentrated in blue states. And is a far cry from relating to the Brooklyn socialist, pronoun using, "latinx", abolish the police aesthetic that leftists gravitate towards. Not saying it's not possible for Dems to re-capture that vote, but the response by leftists to Cuellar's race is illustrative of that cultural divide. Also, Jeet Heer is not a smart person. But I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for those tweets that came before the 2018 and 2020 suburban expansion of Democrats voting base. There was no way he could have known he would be WRONG (except maybe by reviewing his other opinions, but I digress). Shame and embarrassment for what? Campaigning on fiscal responsibility? Are they supposed to say: "We'll blow up the deficit real good? " I mean they ended up doing just that anyway, but it's not exactly a promising campaign slogan. Plus, everyone knows references to the deficit is contextual to party beliefs: For Republicans, reduce the deficit = lowered taxes, budget cuts For Democrats, reduce the deficit = increased taxes, budget increases There's literally NOTHING wrong with running on eliminating debt, even if it's an imaginary problem. Because, Obviously voters care about it (see: poll) It plays to Democrats strength because taxing the rich is popular, but pretty much nothing else that actually reduces the deficit, like cuts to major entitlement programs, is. See, this is the problem with devoting yourself to leftist orthodoxy, you develop BAD political instincts.
Cruel Summer Posted July 18, 2022 Posted July 18, 2022 49 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said: It’s amazing how not a single progressive policy has been passed, and yet… it’s still “we need to pivot to the center MORE.” Pelosi Dems are garbage wbk Like, how much more moderate do they think they can get? They literally elected a former segregationist who’s partially responsible for the student debt crisis to the Presidency. Where else is there to go, just changing the D next to their names to R finally?
Kassi Posted July 18, 2022 Posted July 18, 2022 2 hours ago, Communion said: Except this clearly is what is not happening. They're not losing elections. They keep winning elections because they're giving their base what they want and forcing others along for the ride by making a coalition united in privilege. At this point, you're only denying such because there's incentive for you to keep the clam that people in your six-figure income bracket are viable swing voters for Dems when they're just simply not. You are not the Democratic Party. We are. Oh yeah, "so much winning" that they're now down to single-term presidents, while resorting to rigging elections and challenging democracy itself. You really showed me!
Kassi Posted July 18, 2022 Posted July 18, 2022 2 hours ago, Communion said: What do you call it when alleged pro-choice Republicans in the matter of a few years go from defending abortion up to 20-24 weeks to then joining their fellow Republicans on harsher 15 week limitations? A shift to the right? 15 week abortion bans you say? Idk, let's ask ClashAndBurn. Seems to be right in their wheelhouse.
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