news 2024 US Election Megathread 🇺🇸🏛️

[Kassi]

13 minutes ago, khalyan said:

Bernie hasn't even been mentioned?

 

Anyway, here's polling of Pelosi from 2009.  Remember, ACA passed March 2010.

 

 

Even in 2008 she had negative approval ratings from her own state

 

California registered voters disapprove of Democratic House Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s job performance by a 39 percent to 30 percent margin, with 31 percent expressing no opinion, according to a Field Poll conducted May 17-26.  (x)

 

It's completely disingenuous to try and frame health care as the reason why people don't like Pelosi when she's been in the negative for the past 14 years. 

We’re talking about seats, not approval ratings. Keep up!

 

Caucus leaders are always going to be unfavorable in a country split down the middle.  We know McConnell’s and Pelosi’s ratings, but to drive the point:

 

Here’s Harry Reid 

 

 

and John Boehner

 

 

ditto Paul Ryan

[Kassi]

17 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

I’ve already said that a ban on abortion bans before 15 weeks (which is the Roe status quo what most of the country supports) could be on the table, and would probably get bipartisan support from Manchin, Murkowski, and Collins, but they’re actively choosing not to do that.

 

By passing nothing but virtue signal bills that not even Manchin will get behind due to his pro-life stance, what they are doing IS IN FACT effectively nothing.

So you genuinely think Manchin, Murkowski and Collins will support a filibuster carveout?
 

Or is it that you know they WON’T support gutting the filibuster and yet you still want the House to Do Something that we already know is going to fail?   
 

I mean, if it’s the latter. Then what’s the functional difference? 

[ClashAndBurn]

2 minutes ago, Kassi said:

So you genuinely think Manchin, Murkowski and Collins will support a filibuster carveout?
 

Or is it that you know they WON’T support gutting the filibuster and yet you still want the House to Do Something that we already know is going to fail?   
 

I mean, if it’s the latter. Then what’s the functional difference? 

The difference is you get Republicans on the record as not supporting codifying Roe. What they’re doing now is blocking laws that provide unlimited access to abortion, which the public supports almost as little as they do complete and total bans. As such, the Democrats are going beyond Roe.

 

The vote against Democrats de-limiting abortion is also getting bipartisan votes in both the House and the Senate.

[Bloodflowers.]

 

 

 

[Kassi]

39 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

The ACA was unpopular because of the Individual Mandate and because “if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor” turned out to be a big fat lie. M4A hasn’t been framed properly. Because yes, taxes do go up, but you’re not paying insurance premiums anymore. Media and centrists frame it like the only change is that the only change is the tax increase.

 

Theres also the fact that the largest voting block by race, white people, don’t want black people to have the same nice things that they get, but that’s not a conversation many are willing to have.  

The ACA was unpopular largely because it nullified a lot of peoples fake health insurance by setting minimum coverage requirements and then caused premiums to go up by outlawing denials for pre-existing conditions or charging more to higher risk candidates.

 

So not only did millions of people wake up to find that they didn’t actually have “health insurance” (in quotes because it was likely something like catastrophic injury coverage) anymore. Now the costs were more evenly distributed across a higher risk pool. 
 

If you think the ACA cleaning up the regular insurance market was a nightmare in messaging, just know that Republicans are all but going to annihilate the public’s taste for socialized medicine if M4A is not implemented to 100% perfection on launch. And even then, like you said, the increased taxes will present its own backlash in the IMMEDIATE election cycle following that change.
 

I’m not saying the collective left shouldn’t go for it. But let’s not pretend like it’s going to be as easy as “but 70% of Americans support it, what could go wrong?” 

[khalyan]

29 minutes ago, Kassi said:

We’re talking about seats, not approval ratings. Keep up!

 

Caucus leaders are always going to be unfavorable in a country split down the middle.  We know McConnell’s and Pelosi’s ratings, but to drive the point:

 

Here’s Harry Reid 

 

 

and John Boehner

 

 

ditto Paul Ryan

The gaslighting  

 

You literally said something “happened in 2010 to cause the public to sour against Dems” which is obviously talking about public perception of these politicians i.e. approval ratings.  
 

If you want to move the goal post that’s fine but that’s not what we were discussing originally.  

[Kassi]

57 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

The difference is you get Republicans on the record as not supporting codifying Roe. What they’re doing now is blocking laws that provide unlimited access to abortion, which the public supports almost as little as they do complete and total bans. As such, the Democrats are going beyond Roe.

 

The vote against Democrats de-limiting abortion is also getting bipartisan votes in both the House and the Senate.

Umm. Wym? The Republicans are already on the record as un-codifying Roe… as a constitutional right.  Them voting down attempts to re-codify it as a federal law isn’t going to move anyone. 

 

Also, doesn’t really matter what’s in the bills, Republicans are going to lie about it anyway as they vote down party lines to ABORT it.  
 

All the public needs to have is the general sense that Republicans oppose abortion rights (at any point in the pregnancy, because that’s their stated beliefs). Democrats trying to litmus test Republicans on how extreme their beliefs are by pushing half-measures will only get them lashed by the left and your other friends in this thread for “compromising on women’s right” and you know it (and maybe even want it).
 

Thankfully, Republicans extremism will shake out as more cases like the 10 year old who had to cross state lines get reported on. The messaging is naturally stacked against them on this issue.

[Kassi]

43 minutes ago, khalyan said:

The gaslighting  

 

You literally said something “happened in 2010 to cause the public to sour against Dems” which is obviously talking about public perception of these politicians i.e. approval ratings.  
 

If you want to move the goal post that’s fine but that’s not what we were discussing originally.  

Yes, “Dems”, as in plural, as in them as a party in power. 
 

Anyway, we’re talking about the politics of winning seats at scale. I’ll grant that Pelosi’s approval ratings (along with every other congressional leaders is low). But then what exactly do you think that fact is contributing to this particular conversation? 
 

Are you suggesting that Pelosi’s approval ratings was a bigger determinant of the 2010 midterms than sweeping changes to the national healthcare landscape or the straggling economic recovery?

[ClashAndBurn]

33 minutes ago, Kassi said:

Umm. Wym? The Republicans are already on the record as un-codifying Roe… as a constitutional right.  Them voting down attempts to re-codify it as a federal law isn’t going to move anyone. 

 

Also, doesn’t really matter what’s in the bills, Republicans are going to lie about it anyway as they vote down party lines to ABORT it.  
 

All the public needs to have is the general sense that Republicans oppose abortion rights (at any point in the pregnancy, because that’s their stated beliefs). Democrats trying to litmus test Republicans on how extreme their beliefs are by pushing half-measures will only get them lashed by the left and your other friends in this thread for “compromising on women’s right” and you know it (and maybe even want it).
 

Thankfully, Republicans extremism will shake out as more cases like the 10 year old who had to cross state lines get reported on. The messaging is naturally stacked against them on this issue.

Moderates still view Republicans as moderate on abortion. Again, BANNING abortion after 15 weeks is the moderate position, and Republicans kicking it to the states is a way for them to have a hands-off approach to the goals of their extremist base. They are not on record as being against 15 week bans individually, and centrists give Republican ideologues the benefit of the doubt BECAUSE there are no votes up or down on moderate positions while the Democrats are the ones who are openly currently pushing an extreme bill (that I support btw, but I’m only one person out of that 30-ish% of the country).

 

it’s amazing how “Normie” Democrats are so against holding votes that put people on the spot in public record, but will cheer and clap for Nancy Pelosi’s virtue signal extremist bill that is clearly going to go down one way AND alienates moderates you guys claim to care so much about.  

[Kassi]

1 hour ago, ClashAndBurn said:

Moderates still view Republicans as moderate on abortion. Again, BANNING abortion after 15 weeks is the moderate position, and Republicans kicking it to the states is a way for them to have a hands-off approach to the goals of their extremist base. They are not on record as being against 15 week bans individually, and centrists give Republican ideologues the benefit of the doubt BECAUSE there are no votes up or down on moderate positions while the Democrats are the ones who are openly currently pushing an extreme bill (that I support btw, but I’m only one person out of that 30-ish% of the country).

 

it’s amazing how “Normie” Democrats are so against holding votes that put people on the spot in public record, but will cheer and clap for Nancy Pelosi’s virtue signal extremist bill that is clearly going to go down one way AND alienates moderates you guys claim to care so much about.  

Idk. I’m just not convinced of the argument that Dems need to undermine their own position on their most winningest issue to prove a point that Republicans are all too gleeful to prove themselves.

 

And mind you, this is in addition the controversy surrounded the 10 year old girl which exposed that 1) Republican states like Ohio can and will very explicitly restrict exceptions for rape or the life of a mother and 2) Republican officials like those in Indiana will pursue abortion providers even when there are exceptions for rape or the life of a mother.

 

 

And this is IN ADDITION to Texas suing the Biden admin for requiring that the life of the mother be a prioritized in emergencies.

 

 

The point of presenting a 15 week abortion bill would be to shine the light on Republicans extreme positions. But they're already drowning in it.
 

Knowing that Republicans would vote against the bill anyway and then lie about what’s in it, it makes absolutely no sense for Dems to give the political media an opening for the “Dems in disarray” angle on abortion when AOC and the Squad inevitably fight with the caucus over: “why 15 weeks isn’t enough! Jewish peoples religious rights! Dems are failing women and blah blah blah!”

 

It seems more like you want to draw Dems into a protracted debate about appropriate time frames for abortions which get played out in the media for your entertainment over putting Republican extremism on blast.  

[Kassi]

Wait! I was too focused on breaking down the bad optics of @ClashAndBurn’s plan that I didn’t zoom out and realize the policy implications:

 

He’s asking Democrats to pass their own nationwide ban on abortion to own the Republicans. 

 

Oh man. You almost had me there. You’re one sick mf, but you’re hilarious, dude. 

[Communion]

2 hours ago, Kassi said:

The ACA was unpopular largely because it nullified a lot of peoples fake health insurance by setting minimum coverage requirements and then caused premiums to go up by outlawing denials for pre-existing conditions or charging more to higher risk candidates.

 

So not only did millions of people wake up to find that they didn’t actually have “health insurance” (in quotes because it was likely something like catastrophic injury coverage) anymore.

Yes. And if you weren't secretly making money off of the insurance industry, you'd see that M4A is the only proposed solution to the problem that the ACA left open. 

 

"Peppoe weren't upset at the ACA! They were upset that it showed them they had no real health coverage?"

 

So you mean the feeling that forces every other developed nation to give its people free healthcare to appease the masses, right?

 

Odd how it's only people like you and the Dem governor who is a health insurance heiress against universal healthcare. I wonder why. 

[Communion]

3 hours ago, Kassi said:

Same reason something that 70% of Americans support (i.e. coverage for pre-existing conditions) caused Ds polling to crash…
 

Death Panels! Long wait lines! Forced to give up your doctor! 
 

…political propaganda.

 

 

You're so removed from the reality of anyone living paycheck to paycheck. It's honestly unbearable and like having a MSNBC panelist spamming the thread with objectively false conspiracies they heard over brunch. 

[rihannabiggestfan]

The way anyone supports this literal Republican

 

 

At least people are waking up tho. More and more people are saying "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH"

 

 

[ClashAndBurn]

22 minutes ago, Kassi said:

Wait! I was too focused on breaking down the bad optics of @ClashAndBurn’s plan that I didn’t zoom out and realize the policy implications:

 

He’s asking Democrats to pass their own nationwide ban on abortion to own the Republicans. 

 

Oh man. You almost had me there. You’re one sick mf, but you’re hilarious, dude. 

No. That’s a mischaracterization. The idea would be to disallow states from bans more restrictive than 15 weeks. You tried though.

[ClashAndBurn]

8 minutes ago, Communion said:

You're so removed from the reality of anyone living paycheck to paycheck. It's honestly unbearable and like having a MSNBC panelist spamming the thread with objectively false conspiracies they heard over brunch. 

The way they act like everyone to the left of them is a bad faith actor  They didn’t even acknowledge that what people cared about the most was the Individual Mandate which punished you and fined you for being too poor to afford garbage-tier health insurance.

 

They mischaracterize my stance as wanting a federal ban on abortions when I’ve been advocating for literally putting a vote on the codification of Roe. It’s like liberals don’t even understand what Roe is and what it did. Or what Casey v. Planned Parenthood did either.  

[Communion]

35 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

The way they act like everyone to the left of them is a bad faith actor  They didn’t even acknowledge that what people cared about the most was the Individual Mandate which punished you and fined you for being too poor to afford garbage-tier health insurance.

 

They mischaracterize my stance as wanting a federal ban on abortions when I’ve been advocating for literally putting a vote on the codification of Roe. It’s like liberals don’t even understand what Roe is and what it did. Or what Casey v. Planned Parenthood did either.  

It's just pointless to have these conversations with highly-engaged centrists because they are ideologically driven by their support for societal inequality. ATRL user Kassi is not the middle of America. They do not represent the views of any average demographic. They are a niche figure of affluence representing a tiny portion of not just the Democratic Party but America at large. It'd be like chatting with Elon Musk or Bill Gates on a pop forum and thinking you could convince them that the ideology that propels their livelihood forward is evil. 

 

It's easier to just jump in and instruct how their ideology and nearly all of their posts are almost always wrong.

 

We know from basic observation that corporate Dems' solutions always fail because they don't solve the issue presented by leaving the mechanism of inequality in place. They instead rely on subsidies or "good-faith" regulators to "rein in bad apples" while never removing the profit-incentive that largely drives inequality. 

 

HIGHER EDUCATION:

Problem: *automation and globalization means more jobs require a college degree*

Their solution: Increased Pell Grants and awareness programs to get first-generation students to enroll in college while refusing to do anything to cap and put legislative limits on how much tuition can be charged.

Result: $1.7t in student debt that they now no longer want to address despite being -40 amongst under 35's because adding more money into the system *without controlling the system* saw historic increases in average tuition.

The actual solution: Free College For All that gives the federal government say over how much tuition is while complete and total Student Debt Forgiveness for Obama's government failing to meet its fiduciary responsibility. 

 

HEALTHCARE:

Problem: Health insurance companies screwing over customers because their purpose is to maximize cost and minimize usage, which is only done through the increased denial of care and higher premiums. 

Their solution: Subsidies for insurance companies and to expand Medicaid (without guaranteeing it as mandatory), while only regulating basic aspects of coverage *once you already can afford to buy the insurance with now higher premiumsI. 

Result: People having to buy health insurance to avoid penalties and fees despite no meaningful lowering of monthly premiums - in fact, premiums would go up the entirety of Obama's presidency, leading to a *historical loss of Congressional seats that started Trump's rise before Hillary could even rig her primary*

The actual solution: Medicare For All that removes the profit-incentive and sets costs of service at the federal level.

 

We can do this with any issue. Look at what happened when Dems rigged another primary and we got the human equivalent of "some small changes and regulations" a la Biden. "Nothing will fundamentally change" as a living human now leading a country operating as a failed state that needs drastic systemic changes from the inside out.

 

Corporate Dems aka "centrist Dems" aka capitalist Dems are a cancer - they will co-opt and dismantle every movement and effort of change because they support and believe in fundamentally corrupt ideas that inherently promote inequality. Joe Biden, Chuck Schumer, and Nancy Pelosi, and any of their sycophants and supporters should become social pariahs for getting everything they wanted and our society still collapsing due to their failures.

 

If I was morally bankrupt enough to not support M4A, I'd walk around every day of my life deeply ashamed.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Communion

[Vermillion]

Ton of stuff broke that's apparently old but I didn't see it on here or mentioned in discussion

 

[Vermillion]

 

[rihannabiggestfan]

The fact that it's even easier for billionaires to see eye to eye with progressives (Bernie: "Billionaires shouldn't exist", Steyer: "Senator Sanders is right") than for these niche affluent cult ""centrists"" to 

 

 

Edited July 16, 2022 by rihannabiggestfan

[ClashAndBurn]

Oh… oh my GOD!

 

 

The way Jill Biden is even worse when it comes to talking down to people than Michelle Obama. How is that even possible?!?!?!

 

This is basically telling protestors to shut up and dribble, only it’s shut up and vote

[rihannabiggestfan]

Ed.D's are very often annoying, wbk

 

 

I'll never forget my 12th grade English teacher constantly rightfully making fun of my Ed.D principal for his arrogance and snootiness, like get over yourselves already

[Communion]

"He had so many hopes & plans for things he wanted to do"

 

THEY ALREADY TALKING ABOUT HIM IN PAST TENSE LIKE HE'S DEAD 

[Kassi]

1 hour ago, ClashAndBurn said:

No. That’s a mischaracterization. The idea would be to disallow states from bans more restrictive than 15 weeks. You tried though.

Yeah. So you want Dems to effectively pass an abortion ban at 15 weeks for all women living in red states.  By no measure is that “codifying Roe”.

 

Idk if you’re serious or yanking our legs. But, if you are serious, you may want to re-explore the Roe and Casey opinions. For summary purposes, Roe used a trimester framework and allowed abortions until the end of the second trimester or ~28 weeks. Then, Casey reaffirmed that by using viability as a framework and, referring to the latest medical consensus, clarified that viability meant ~24 weeks. 
 

Pelosi’s Women’s Health Protection Act also uses viability as a framework, with the exact same language for post-viability exceptions for life of the mother.

 

Quote

Under the WHPA, states could not enact “a prohibition on abortion at any point or points in time prior to fetal viability, including a prohibition or restriction on a particular abortion procedure.” It also prohibits post-viability restrictions on abortion “when, in the good-faith medical judgment of the treating health care provider, continuation of the pregnancy would pose a risk to the pregnant patient’s life or health.”

 

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/20930358/codify-roe-wade-womens-health-protection-act-supreme-court-nancy-pelosi-democrats

Just admit that you accidentally took a bad position so you could shame Democrats for Doing Something by foolishly suggesting that they Do Something even worse (basically carry out the Republicans agenda for them ff). 

[Kassi]

For anyone too lazy to look it up:

 

Quote

Viability of the fetus

Although it upheld the "essential holding" in Roe, and recognized that women had some constitutional liberty to terminate their pregnancies, the O'Connor–Kennedy–Souter plurality overturned the Roe trimester framework in favor of a viability analysis. The Roe trimester framework completely forbade states from regulating abortion during the first trimester of pregnancy, permitted regulations designed to protect a woman's health in the second trimester, and permitted prohibitions on abortion during the third trimester (when the fetus becomes viable) under the justification of fetal protection, and so long as the life or health of the mother was not at risk.^[20] The plurality found that continuing advancements in medical technology had proven that a fetus could be considered viable at 23 or 24 weeks rather than at the 28 weeks previously understood by the Court in Roe.
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_Parenthood_v._Casey