news [Day 1035] Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[VeniceBeach]

10 minutes ago, Letemtalk said:

What happened with this thread? Did Americans get bored with this conflict and decide to spend money helping Israel bomb civilians in Gaza instead?

 

White House says it is nearly out of money to help Ukraine fight war with Russia
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/white-house-says-it-is-nearly-out-money-help-ukraine-fight-war-with-russia-2023-12-04/

 

 

Republicans don't want to give money to Ukraine because they like how far-right Russia is becoming, especially over the last year. Support for Ukraine is fading and we can notice it by the situation on the front too, there are almost no advances of Ukrainian troops over the last months 

[John Slayne]

On 11/5/2023 at 1:38 AM, VeniceBeach said:

Suggesting Ukraine give up 1/4 of its territory is indeed anti-Ukrainian. I ask you again, should the Palestinians by your logic give up 1/4 of their land so the war with Isreal doesn't continue for the next 75 years? Isn't it "prolonged" enough?

Serious question, do you think that Ukraine can still realistically push Russians back and reclaim their land? As numerous articles cite above, it seems like both the UA army and their Western allies don't have much else to give, unless NATO deploys their own units on the ground. Obviously in an ideal world the war would not happen and UA could keep their territories, as is their right, but they've been occupied for year and a half now and barely anything has changed. People just keep dying with no end in sight. At this point it's becoming very clear that peace talks should've started long time ago. There's no way UA can win unless their Western allies literally send their own troops. 

 

The situation in Palestine is different since Israel is directly enabled and supported by the US (and Europe), so it makes more sense to pressure Western governments to change their foreign policy in favour of Palestine, which could bring about meaningful change. With UA I don't really see what else they and their Western allies can do to win, Putin is not going to withdraw and it looks like the West has no means to force him to do so... 

 

For the record, I fully support UA, I'm just genuinely curious about your thoughts on this. 

[Gottasadae]

49 minutes ago, John Slayne said:

Serious question, do you think that Ukraine can still realistically push Russians back and reclaim their land? As numerous articles cite above, it seems like both the UA army and their Western allies don't have much else to give, unless NATO deploys their own units on the ground. Obviously in an ideal world the war would not happen and UA could keep their territories, as is their right, but they've been occupied for year and a half now and barely anything has changed. People just keep dying with no end in sight. At this point it's becoming very clear that peace talks should've started long time ago. There's no way UA can win unless their Western allies literally send their own troops. 

 

The situation in Palestine is different since Israel is directly enabled and supported by the US (and Europe), so it makes more sense to pressure Western governments to change their foreign policy in favour of Palestine, which could bring about meaningful change. With UA I don't really see what else they and their Western allies can do to win, Putin is not going to withdraw and it looks like the West has no means to force him to do so... 

 

For the record, I fully support UA, I'm just genuinely curious about your thoughts on this. 

Peace talks are useless cuz putin is keep lying over and over again, I think he will prolong this war until US presidential election. It's not a secret that he badly need Trump in office to save yourself and make Ukraine as neutral territory under russian puppet control. It’s true that Ukraine can't win this war without adequate weapons supply plus most important aviation. The eastern front has like 3 lines of defenses with trap trenches and a lot of mines, UA soldiers only partially breached first line of russian defense and summer counteroffensive showed very well that tanks are pretty useless without fighter jets to support land offensive operations, so it’s not about troops but mostly weapons and knowledge how to use it efficiently. Anyway, russia is keep loosing man power and equipment too and a lot more than UA, plus they’re stuck on eastern frontlines with no clear plans what to do next. 

[Gottasadae]

13 hours ago, Letemtalk said:

What happened with this thread? Did Americans get bored with this conflict and decide to spend money helping Israel bomb civilians in Gaza instead?

 

White House says it is nearly out of money to help Ukraine fight war with Russia
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/white-house-says-it-is-nearly-out-money-help-ukraine-fight-war-with-russia-2023-12-04/

 

 

Atrl has many Russia apologists that don’t even consider what putin is doing in Ukraine as genocide and ethnic cleansing, meanwhile they’re ripping their arses for Palestine - double standards and hypocrisy at it best  

Edited December 5, 2023 by Gottasadae

[Aethereal]

Russia lost the war already. The post 2022 territory under Russian occupation is only roughly 1.7x of Crimea and Donbass. But when the Russian takeover of Crimea and Donbass happened, Russia was not hit as hard by sanctions, they did not lose 200,000 soldiers and they did  not gain a completely empty and damaged infrastructure with potentially no tourism for years which is only a burden for Russia at this point.

 

But Ukraine lost a lot too and it does not seem to moving along.  A big problem is if Russia has the usual bad habit forgetting borders and deals and years later they jump into invading all of Ukraine again. 

 

 

[ClashAndBurn]

1 hour ago, Gottasadae said:

Atrl has many Russia apologists that don’t even consider what putin is doing in Ukraine as genocide and ethnic cleansing, meanwhile they’re ripping their arses for Palestine - double standards and hypocrisy at it best  

And the vast majority of the Ukraine stans are all Israel/Biden apologists that don't give a **** about Palestinians dying at a much more rapid and disproportionate rate. You have zero room to talk about double standards and hypocrisy.  

 

Palestine literally doesn't have the West arming it and allowing them to defend themselves. In fact, the West believes Palestine has zero legitimacy and zero right to self-defense. They don't even consider Palestinians human beings. Meanwhile, Ukraine, the white European country, does have the West in its corner, risking global annihilation in order to defend its territorial integrity so that they can eventually set up nuclear missiles permanently and threateningly pointed at Moscow along Russia's border.

[Gottasadae]

11 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

And the vast majority of the Ukraine stans are all Israel/Biden apologists that don't give a **** about Palestinians dying at a much more rapid and disproportionate rate.

First of all, I don’t support neither Israel or Palestine, since one is pushing their agenda and other is controlled by terrorist organization, both of them are keep lying in a blink of an eye. Second, I couldn’t care less about Biden as independent but if GOP only can propose Trump as their messiah, then thank you, next…I better vote for another 4 years of moderate dementia than totally unfit dumb psycho that have no idea about foreign policies or domestic issues.

 

20 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

so that they can eventually set up nuclear missiles permanently and threateningly pointed at Moscow along Russia's border.

Tell me you’re a russian supporter, without telling me  It’s a same bullshit that russian propagandists keep using to brainwash masses on state tv  Isn’t Ukraine already has US bases all over the border, chemical weapons with fighting mosquitos and ducks, plus secret nuclear arsenal according to Solovyov and Skabeyeva 

[Aethereal]

44 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

And the vast majority of the Ukraine stans are all Israel/Biden apologists that don't give a **** about Palestinians dying at a much more rapid and disproportionate rate. You have zero room to talk about double standards and hypocrisy.  

 

Palestine literally doesn't have the West arming it and allowing them to defend themselves. In fact, the West believes Palestine has zero legitimacy and zero right to self-defense. They don't even consider Palestinians human beings. Meanwhile, Ukraine, the white European country, does have the West in its corner, risking global annihilation in order to defend its territorial integrity so that they can eventually set up nuclear missiles permanently and threateningly pointed at Moscow along Russia's border.

You were critical over Zelensky refusing to accept the deal with Putin in order to save Ukrainian lives from dying but don't seem to be upset with Palestinian rulers not accepting the two-state solution in order to save even more Palestinian lives for a much smaller amount of territory? 

 

 

 

[VeniceBeach]

4 hours ago, John Slayne said:

Serious question, do you think that Ukraine can still realistically push Russians back and reclaim their land? As numerous articles cite above, it seems like both the UA army and their Western allies don't have much else to give, unless NATO deploys their own units on the ground. Obviously in an ideal world the war would not happen and UA could keep their territories, as is their right, but they've been occupied for year and a half now and barely anything has changed. People just keep dying with no end in sight.

Ukraine doesn't even need NATO troops on its territory, what it needs are modern combat aircraft to control frontline borders, millions of artillery shells and more advanced electronic devices against drones. The Russian-Ukrainian war at the moment is a battle of artillery, while NATO long ago switched to developing modern warplanes to prevent any movement of ground vehicles. Can Ukraine regain its territories? In its current state, no. It can in the future if it has enough of the abovementioned things. But what many people overlook is that if Ukraine stops resisting, Russia will not stop and will seize more territories without any peace treaties.

 

4 hours ago, John Slayne said:

At this point it's becoming very clear that peace talks should've started long time ago. There's no way UA can win unless their Western allies literally send their own troops.

A peace treaty with Russia is not a peace treaty, but a frozen conflict for a couple of years only to be resumed with even more violence and cruelty. The situation in Gaza shows this perfectly, neither country will be happy with a peace treaty and they will start thinking about how to accomplish all their goals militarily. A peace treaty on the current frontline borders is also impossible because Russia does not even control the two regional capitals of the regions they occupy (Zaporizhzhia and Kherson). Here's what the map of Russia looks like in the new Russian maps with "new regions":

And that is the situation today. Not all of their desired territories are under their occupation.

Every country in the world recognizes Ukraine's borders, even Russia itself recognized Crimea as Ukrainian and all their other territories. Why should Ukraine give them away? There are millions of Ukrainians living in the occupied territories and they support Ukraine, every captured city went out to rallies in the first months of the capture, but then they stopped doing so because they feared Russian troops. They want to live in their own country and we should support this and help Ukraine, not fall for Russian propaganda, because they will tell you 15 different reasons why they started the war, why a peace treaty will supposedly end the war, but none of this is true.

[bestfiction]

1 hour ago, ClashAndBurn said:

And the vast majority of the Ukraine stans are all Israel/Biden apologists that don't give a **** about Palestinians dying at a much more rapid and disproportionate rate. You have zero room to talk about double standards and hypocrisy.  

 

Palestine literally doesn't have the West arming it and allowing them to defend themselves. In fact, the West believes Palestine has zero legitimacy and zero right to self-defense. They don't even consider Palestinians human beings. Meanwhile, Ukraine, the white European country, does have the West in its corner, risking global annihilation in order to defend its territorial integrity so that they can eventually set up nuclear missiles permanently and threateningly pointed at Moscow along Russia's border.

With statements like this you reveal nothing but your own moral bankruptcy.

[ClashAndBurn]

1 hour ago, Aristotle said:

You were critical over Zelensky refusing to accept the deal with Putin in order to save Ukrainian lives from dying but don't seem to be upset with Palestinian rulers not accepting the two-state solution in order to save even more Palestinian lives for a much smaller amount of territory? 

 

 

 

What are you talking about???? ISRAEL doesn't want a Two-State Solution, never wanted one, and never will. If any genocidal campaign has any chance of succeeding with zero pushback from the West, it'll be the purging of Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank. Case in point: your statement shows how you and the rest of the West don't believe Palestinians have any right to self-defense or self-determination. The only outcome is they get pushed into Egypt, and America, Canada, and Europe will just shrug their shoulders, screeching that "Israel has a right to defend itself," even though it's objectively an occupying force for 75 years.

 

18 minutes ago, bestfiction said:

With statements like this you reveal nothing but your own moral bankruptcy.

Moral bankruptcy? Because Ukrainians have been armed and supplied for almost two years while Palestinians are being left to die? The West is morally bankrupt and have proven themselves to be for decades.

[Aethereal]

10 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

What are you talking about???? ISRAEL doesn't want a Two-State Solution, never wanted one, and never will. If any genocidal campaign has any chance of succeeding with zero pushback from the West, it'll be the purging of Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank. Case in point: your statement shows how you and the rest of the West don't believe Palestinians have any right to self-defense or self-determination. The only outcome is they get pushed into Egypt, and America, Canada, and Europe will just shrug their shoulders, screeching that "Israel has a right to defend itself," even though it's objectively an occupying force for 75 years.

 

The two state solution was rejected by Palestinian leaders time and time again just like the Zelensky rejected the Russian offer. 

 

Do your own homework. 

[ClashAndBurn]

1 minute ago, Aristotle said:

The two state solution was rejected by Palestinian leaders time and time again just like the Zelensky rejected the Russian offer. 

 

Do your own homework. 

Why would they accept a lopsided deal that Israel was always going to renege on anyway?????????????????? Gaza and the West Bank being separated is always going to be a nonstarter. You seem to be ignoring that the Two-State Fantasy is something only America wants (which leaves Palestinians with basically nothing, and no right-of-return), and by giving "no red lines," that means what Israel wants goes and what Israel wants has always been to stake their claims on Gaza, Judea and Samaria.

 

It can be argued that Russia is equally untrustworthy as Israel, but talks were dismissed by the West out of hand, and America didn't want to take the chance that they could threaten Russia off the table. Boris Johnson and Joe Biden wanted Zelenskyy to bleed his population and throw them into the meat-grinder for their geopolitical ends, not to help Ukraine.

[Illuminati]

3 hours ago, ClashAndBurn said:

And the vast majority of the Ukraine stans are all Israel/Biden apologists that don't give a **** about Palestinians dying at a much more rapid and disproportionate rate. You have zero room to talk about double standards and hypocrisy.  

 

Palestine literally doesn't have the West arming it and allowing them to defend themselves. In fact, the West believes Palestine has zero legitimacy and zero right to self-defense. They don't even consider Palestinians human beings. Meanwhile, Ukraine, the white European country, does have the West in its corner, risking global annihilation in order to defend its territorial integrity so that they can eventually set up nuclear missiles permanently and threateningly pointed at Moscow along Russia's border.

There are no nukes in any of the bordering NATO countries - the Baltic states or Finland. Ukraine HAD its own nukes that it gave away in exchange for not being invaded by Russia and it didn't work.

 

By your logic we would be risking nuclear war if we were arming Palestine as well, because Israel has nukes.

[ClashAndBurn]

2 minutes ago, Illuminati said:

There are no nukes in any of the bordering NATO countries - the Baltic states or Finland. Ukraine HAD its own nukes that it gave away in exchange for not being invaded by Russia and it didn't work.

 

By your logic we would be risking nuclear war if we were arming Palestine as well, because Israel has nukes.

Did I argue that Palestine should be armed by the West? If anything, my stance is that Israel shouldn't be getting military aid from the US either. At least Ukraine getting aid is morally justifiable. Israel, while it is the genocidal occupier, is not by any means whatsoever. In this scenario, the US is practically arming the moral equivalent to Russia.  

Edited December 5, 2023 by ClashAndBurn

[Aethereal]

2 minutes ago, ClashAndBurn said:

Why would they accept a lopsided deal that Israel was always going to renege on anyway?????????????????? Gaza and the West Bank being separated is always going to be a nonstarter. You seem to be ignoring that the Two-State Fantasy is something only America wants (which leaves Palestinians with basically nothing, and no right-of-return), and by giving "no red lines," that means what Israel wants goes and what Israel wants has always been to stake their claims on Gaza, Judea and Samaria.

 

It can be argued that Russia is equally untrustworthy as Israel, but talks were dismissed by the West out of hand, and America didn't want to take the chance that they could threaten Russia off the table. Boris Johnson and Joe Biden wanted Zelenskyy to bleed his population and throw them into the meat-grinder for their geopolitical ends, not to help Ukraine.

Maybe but it has also a lot to do with the "holy land" religious madness which is what pushed Jews in this territory in the first place. Maybe Arabs would accept the offer if it this scenario happened elsewhere. Even Arabs consider the territory Israel holds as holy; 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Land#Islam

 

I doubt this would so far if it happened in another Arab region expect for Mecca.

[Vermillion]

On 12/4/2023 at 7:22 AM, Letemtalk said:

What happened with this thread? Did Americans get bored with this conflict and decide to spend money helping Israel bomb civilians in Gaza instead?

 

White House says it is nearly out of money to help Ukraine fight war with Russia
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/white-house-says-it-is-nearly-out-money-help-ukraine-fight-war-with-russia-2023-12-04/

 

 

For the record, I and several members were against this conflict thread losing it’s sticky status it had prior. That was a decision by the mods never properly addressed with the forum other than insinuations it took up too much bandwidth prior to the reset. You’ll want to take that up with them. 
 

I’ve had a lot going on personally otherwise I’d be in here more frequently.

[Vermillion]

 

[Aethereal]

#prayforUkraine

[Vermillion]

 

[Vermillion]

 

[Vermillion]

 

[Genius1111]

Taken from The Guardian...

 

 

Russia has lost 344,820 troops since it invaded Ukraine last February, according to the latest figures shared by Ukraine’s armed forces.

 

Russia had suffered 930 casualties over the past day, the army said.

 

According to Ukraine’s report, Russia has lost 5,720 tanks, 10,667 armoured vehicles, 10,710 vehicles and fuel tanks, 8,100 artillery systems, 920 multiple-launch rocket systems.

It had also lost 605 air defence systems, 324 planes, 324 helicopters, 6,238 drones, 22 ships and boats, and one submarine, Ukraine said.

 

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[chessguy99]

On 12/16/2023 at 7:11 AM, Genius1111 said:

Taken from The Guardian...

 

 

Russia has lost 344,820 troops since it invaded Ukraine last February, according to the latest figures shared by Ukraine’s armed forces.

 

Russia had suffered 930 casualties over the past day, the army said.

 

According to Ukraine’s report, Russia has lost 5,720 tanks, 10,667 armoured vehicles, 10,710 vehicles and fuel tanks, 8,100 artillery systems, 920 multiple-launch rocket systems.

It had also lost 605 air defence systems, 324 planes, 324 helicopters, 6,238 drones, 22 ships and boats, and one submarine, Ukraine said.

 

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Russian losses mean very little. It's Ukrainian  loses that are important. They have recently raised the draft age to over 40. That is starting to get to levels such as Germany in the 1944. The effect of the loss of nearly a generation of young Ukrainian males will be felt for decades.

[bestfiction]