Reinvention

The Last of Us Part II

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Cas
21 hours ago, Kingpin said:

Just finished it. Loved this game

 

Some random thoughts

 

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+Characters were all very dynamic and they managed to flesh them out, apart from Dina which I found a bit odd. She was just kinda like, there as the love interest but not much personality and didn't get much chemistry between her and Ellie.

 

+Graphics, prob best I've seen. Edges out Red Dead because of the facial animation. 

 

+Music. Love that this game/series has a signature sound with the banjos and acoustic guitar

 

+Gameplay is tight. I had to play with slow mo mode and timed invisibility when crawling because I suck at shooting games on console. The amount of accessibility options is crazy

 

-Tommy was a bit of an asshole? He didn't seem too enthused about capturing Abby and avenging Joel until he was directly affected. (Right before Jesse dies and they're planning to return without pursuing Abby further)

 

-I would honestly put the Abby/Dad flashback before Joel's death. The way its set up now makes the player hate Abby right away and you don't care or want to even play as her at all.

 

-I eventually really liked Abbie, but I think the ending would have had more of an impact if Ellie killed her.

Spoiler

I completely disagree with your suggestion that Abby/her dad part should be put befor Joel's death. The conflict of playing the Joels killer is what made me like the segment. I loved how we learned about Abby's reasons too.

 

The parts of the game that I didn't like we're actually Ellie's stubborness to kill Abby even though the latter spared her life TWICE. Same as Tommy's.

 

.

 

 

I don't get the hate of the game. I am really confused of the negative user score that it got. Can someone explain to me why?

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Liafen
1 hour ago, budgier said:

  

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I don't have the links to these posts (they were on Reddit) but I REALLY like the idea of having the first half of the game as Abby instead of Ellie, and the first time you see Ellie is when she enters the room when you're killing Joel as Abby, then you continue the story with Abby's parts. You switch to Ellie's POV when Abby finds Mel and Owen dead at the aquarium. I think Abby finding them dead the way they were would be a nice shock moment for players, as first you're wondering if it was Scars who killed them and then the immediate switch to the Ellie POV would be like "IT WAS ELLIE!?!" type of impact on the player and re-energize the game as we play through as Ellie. Switching to Abby's POV at the point of climax at the end of Ellie's days deflates the game's momentum so much, whereas this would have been way more positively received.

Also having the mid-to-end game dominated by Abby made this feel like 'her' game instead of Joel and Ellie's which pisses people off. With this change I think it feels more like Ellie's story. We get to know Abby and her gang first, then we navigate Ellie's grief and revenge as she hunts and kills people we actually know. Picturing the game laid out like this flows so much better. The big hurdle would be getting people to keep playing as Abby in the beginning, but the word of mouth would be "you just have to keep playing to see what happens." rather than "the game goes to **** half way through." 

 

Then there's more obvious ones like rotating between playing as Ellie and Abby which imo would also improve the game a lot and remove some of the drag of playing some of their days.

 

 

I'm excited for the multiplayer, the multi in the first one was so fun. 

No story DLC is disappointing though.

Whew sorry but that structure sounds horrid :skull: 

 

Spoiler

Alternating between Ellie's and Abby's days is the closest I got to "help" with the momentum, it builds up so much better - sure there is no shock value in the middle because of switching to Abby, but that wore off quickly and became annoying anyway - to the point where even I was annoyed with the grinding. 

 

Also it would help if Abby's storyline was focused more on the WFL-Seraphite conflict, planning it out with Isaac's team only to be abducted by them in maybe Day 2?

And she'd get the news of a few unknown trespassers earlier on. Should feel more exciting, knowing that they would eventually lead to each other, with Abby getting the news of Nora etc being killed... I'd honestly completely redesign Abby's days because plot-wise, they were kind of boring :skull: 

 

29 minutes ago, Cas said:
  Hide contents

I completely disagree with your suggestion that Abby/her dad part should be put befor Joel's death. The conflict of playing the Joels killer is what made me like the segment. I loved how we learned about Abby's reasons too.

 

The parts of the game that I didn't like we're actually Ellie's stubborness to kill Abby even though the latter spared her life TWICE. Same as Tommy's.

 

.

 

 

I don't get the hate of the game. I am really confused of the negative user score that it got. Can someone explain to me why?

Spoiler

- People are generally angry that Joel died, and how he died

- People don't want to play as Abby because she killed Joel and they aren't really up for understanding that her actions can also be justified, just as Ellies and Joels

- Many are angry that Ellie leaves Abby in the end, essentially following a "must kill bad guy. bad guy alive = game bad" logic, again not really seeing the game's key point of the "morality" of violence and retribution 

- There are a couple issues with the narrative and pacing

 

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shademastur

I hated Abby at first but came around to really liking her at the end, while hating Ellie :rip:

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jakedavis1994

The Forest section with Abby absolutely scalped me. So good.

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Cas
16 hours ago, Liafen said:

Whew sorry but that structure sounds horrid :skull: 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Alternating between Ellie's and Abby's days is the closest I got to "help" with the momentum, it builds up so much better - sure there is no shock value in the middle because of switching to Abby, but that wore off quickly and became annoying anyway - to the point where even I was annoyed with the grinding. 

 

Also it would help if Abby's storyline was focused more on the WFL-Seraphite conflict, planning it out with Isaac's team only to be abducted by them in maybe Day 2?

And she'd get the news of a few unknown trespassers earlier on. Should feel more exciting, knowing that they would eventually lead to each other, with Abby getting the news of Nora etc being killed... I'd honestly completely redesign Abby's days because plot-wise, they were kind of boring :skull: 

 

  Hide contents

- People are generally angry that Joel died, and how he died

- People don't want to play as Abby because she killed Joel and they aren't really up for understanding that her actions can also be justified, just as Ellies and Joels

- Many are angry that Ellie leaves Abby in the end, essentially following a "must kill bad guy. bad guy alive = game bad" logic, again not really seeing the game's key point of the "morality" of violence and retribution 

- There are a couple issues with the narrative and pacing

 

Spoiler

The pacing has its issues, I agree.

 

However the rest is bulcrap and the gp can go and suck my dick.

The game explores the issue of vengeance  - the malicious circle of hate that breeds more hate.

Abby wanted her father's killer dead, no matter what. She and her friends kill Joel which leads to a vengeful Ellie. She slaughters countless people, including the love interest of Abby, and so on...

 

The conflict between the wolves and the Scars is the same - a random small group for whatever reason attacks another during a time of truce. The result - a full blown war between the the fractions and every single kill puts even more fuel into the conflict. 

 

Abby decided to end the circle but Ellie couldn't let go - that I foind annoying. There was no personal growth in Ellie's character till the very end when she finally decided to stop being an asshole. 

 

I was rooting for Abby at the end to be honest.

 

 

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Massive_Teardrop
2 hours ago, Cas said:

The pacing has its issues, I agree.

 

However the rest is bulcrap and the gp can go and suck my dick.

The game explores the issue of vengeance  - the malicious circle of hate that breeds more hate.

Abby wanted her father's killer dead, no matter what. She and her friends kill Joel which leads to a vengeful Ellie. She slaughters countless people, including the love interest of Abby, and so on...

 

The conflict between the wolves and the Scars is the same - a random small group for whatever reason attacks another during a time of truce. The result - a full blown war between the the fractions and every single kill puts even more fuel into the conflict. 

 

Abby decided to end the circle but Ellie couldn't let go - that I foind annoying. There was no personal growth in Ellie's character till the very end when she finally decided to stop being an asshole. 

 

I was rooting for Abby at the end to be honest.

Spoiler

On my last few hours of TLOU2 (in SB as Ellie) and wow I completely agree that the hatred for the game is fully unwarranted. I still find Abby's personality to be a little wooden and slow to begin but once you start launching into her story, it really gives some of the best moments in the entire series for me. 

- the Seattle sky-bridge and descent down the incredibly infested skyscraper with Lev

-Attack on Seraphite community to find Lev

-Searching for supplies in the infested WLF hospital 

 

I also absolutely adore the writing of the relationship between Abby and YaraxLev. Really beautiful.

 

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Massive_Teardrop
On 6/26/2020 at 2:02 PM, budgier said:

By the time I had gotten to the Scars island with Abby I was soooo sick of it. I so wanted to be experiencing all of this through the lense of Ellie. I wanted to take down the cult with Ellie. I feel like most of this could've been rewritten to include Ellie. Dina could've been captured by the Scars for being a "sinner" The added fear of Ellie going after Dina thinking they could kill her and the baby, the fear of her being hung up and them gutting her like they did with others seems like a missed opportunity. 

 

On 6/26/2020 at 2:14 PM, HabbGaga said:

Your idea of Dina getting captured by the scars and Ellie going to the island is such a good ****ing idea and so much better than what we got. The scar island was actually extremely cool gameplay but it was wasted on Abby and the siblings who we only barely care about. Playing through that with Ellie and the investment of saving Dina would have been amazing.

AHHHHHH I fully agreee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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NicoleAMatty

 

:'(

 

I feel like playing it again to get that platinum.

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PoisonCandy

 

These are so cool. I never even thought of playing an actual song on that guitar. Makes me want to go back and try them.

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Massive_Teardrop

"The descent" from abby part was one of the greatest gaming sequences I have played in a long long time.

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ginnala

Finished this yesterday and wanted to write some thoughts 

Spoiler

First of all, I must say I read the leaks and I was mostly prepared for what was coming, so I played it with a different mindset than people who played it blindly. I was surprised to play Abby in the prologue and that Joel dies so early in the game. I can definitely understand why people are angry that he died so early but would people really be less mad if he had died later in the game? I was honestly surprised he survived the first game and his death was needed to kickstart the story they wanted to tell. I put an emphasis on this because I thought the prologue was kinda a drag and the game really starts being exciting once he dies and when we arrive in Seattle (but again, maybe I felt that way because I knew what was going to happen in Jackson, so I kinda just waited for it to happen). 

 

I loved Ellie's part in Seattle. Her 2nd and 3rd days were flawless for me. The story really progressed in a natural way with bold and rather shocking scenes like when she kills Nora and then Mel/Owen. It was extremely intense. It was kinda weird, tho, to give a semi "open world" in day 1 with optional buildings/cut scenes and to remove that part of gameplay later on. I feel like they wanted to make the whole game like this and at some point decided not to? Speaking of the gameplay, it was really amazing for me. You can dislike the story but the gameplay was incredible, tho I played in moderate and felt like it was easier than the first game? Has anyone gotten that impression as well? 

 

As for Abby, I knew I was going to switch to her half of the game. I was curious to see if they would be able to achieve their goal of making me like her, and it kinda worked. Of course I don't appreciate that she killed Joel but I liked her character. Her storyline was basically made to draw a parallel not only with Ellie, but with Joel himself. She is willing to protect those kids at all cost just like Joel with Ellie, making us think that if she had been in Joel's postition at the end of the first game, she would have actually done the same thing. I agree that the writing was too on the nose here as the developpers were basically desperate to make us appreciate her, but again, it worked for me. Although, her flashbacks with Owen dragged too much. I didn't care about the love triangle at all and I think those scenes could have been cut. Also, Abby's first day is kinda the worst part of the game after the prologue. I think it could have been better if her storyline started directly with her meeting the children, with day 2 being her day 1, day 3 being her second day, and her last day being focused on learning about Nora's death and tracking down Ellie/Tommy around the city (regarding Tommy, I thought we would learn he had been killed by the cult in Ellie's second day, making them an enemy not only for Abby but for Ellie aswell). 

 

Lastly, I didn't get spoiled on what happened after the first confrontation at all, so I was surprised by how much gameplay there was left. But at the same time it kinda felt ruched and unexplored. Maybe they should have cut a seattle day on both parts and make a bigger third act in Santa Barbara. We don't really know what are the Rattlers' motivations (unless I missed some notes), so I feel like I need more on this. Seeing Abby like this at the end made me feel bad and realize that I appreciated her more than I thought. I really didn't want Ellie to kill her, which showed again that the developpers' intentions really worked for me. Abby emerged as the bigger person while Ellie (and Tommy) kept being obsessed with revenge (even though Abby let her live twice). I also don't understand how can people say Abby won when she has lost everything (even her muscles), and her survival after leaving the beach isn't even guaranteed. She is probably even more traumatized than Ellie now. 

 

Regarding a third game

Spoiler

I really think this is the end for Ellie. I don't see how they can bring her back or why. Sure maybe she returns as a side character but she won't ever be playable, imo. I think the most logicial continuation would be Abby and Lev trying to find the fireflies, but considering how much controversial Abby is, I doubt they actually do it even if it is/was their plan. I like the idea of playing as JJ 15 years or so later. But I wouldn't be surprised if they just let the franchise rest, it might be too risky to do another game even if this one is successful commercially and critically. 

 

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DAP
Posted (edited)

Abby is a more compelling character than Ellie

 

DTkl1CI.gif

Edited by DAP

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Legendairy

I just got my damn copy. Jesus ****ing Christ here we go. 

DTkl1CI.gif

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Ciel
3 hours ago, DAP said:

Abby is a more compelling character than Ellie

 

DTkl1CI.gif

fax no printer

 

DTkl1CI.gif

 

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jaiquanda

been a long time player of all Naughty Dog games, and have loved them all.
This game was no exception. I think I cried about 8 times!

 

did Dina annoy the **** out of anyone else though? I just was not having a bar of her. After you go through the hectic underground subway bit and then end up in the Seattle cinema. The NERVE of this bitch to drop the pregnancy bomb shell then and there? I don’t think soooooo.

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Reinvention

 Finally finished the game! God that was an insane journey. I have so many thoughts and feelings but mostly

 

Spoiler

I am just so distraught over the descent of Ellie. That final fight scene with Abby was f*cking awful. Abby had obviously been through SOOO much and same with Lev and I just felt so god damn sorry for them both. I hated Ellie in that moment, and too right that Dina left her. Ellie was a damn fool for going after her in the first place. Anyway that's obviously the whole point of the whole game, to make Ellie the villain, but UGH. Suppose we all kinda knew it was coming.

 

Also Joel asking if Dina is her girlfriend in that final flashback to Ellie/Joel... :dancehall:  Emotional.

 

p.s. spoilers not in the spoiler tags are obvi still against the rules and I will warn you.

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Reinvention
On 6/30/2020 at 12:23 PM, Massive_Teardrop said:

"The descent" part was one of the greatest gaming sequences I have played in a long long time.

It was one of the stand-out sequences for me too. Like I HATED it because it was terrifying, but it was amazing.

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highdefinition

 

Spoiler

I just finished the game, I wanted Ellie so badly to kill Abby. What a disappointing ending -  they should have given the player the choice to kill Abby or to let her live. So now she's gone through all of that, loses two fingers and Dina for nothing? :skull:

 

 

 

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Liafen
Spoiler

I'm sorry but "the option to kill Abby" take is probably even worse than writing entire paragraphs of how Joel's actions in the first game were 100% justifiable and morally right. 

Like, it's the direct OPPOSITE of what the first and second game are trying to say. And I find it laughable that these two things seem to be the biggest issues haters have with the game, too, eg. Reddit posts writing a big ass monologue for Joel to say to Ellie for the last flashback explaining why he was 100% right with his choice :toofunny2: And these are the same people that scream "bad writing" without even knowing WHAT is bad writing. (For the record, one of the strongest writing moment is that last flashback, when Joel says the 'If somehow God gave me a second chance... I would do it all over again' made Ellie realize why Joel did what he did, and led her to the road of forgiveness.)

 

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rzal

Ellie good Abby bad

Brainlet wojak constructor Blank Template - Imgflip

They make you play as the villain 

Brainlet wojak constructor Blank Template - Imgflip

Ellie should have killed you know who 

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Spoiler

Joel dead game bad 

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Spoiler

I had extremely low expectations for this game, I knew Joel would die (I didn't really care as it seemed obvious from the trailers, Ellie was always the main character anyway), I knew we would play as Abby, I knew she would survive (that was the worst spoiler I read). The game started out GREAT, I loved running away from the horde, I didn't think there was anything wrong with the way Joel died. 

Then we get to Seattle and I was like oh well this is kinda boring I see why people might not like it as much :rip: I was trying to find bad things about the game. And to be fair Seattle first day was boring and Dinah suddenly getting sick from the pregnancy was bad writing but I saw NOBODY mention this :skull: I thought people would hate how unlikable they made Ellie, but no, it's still Ellie good, Abby bad :skull: I was so mad at her when she refused to go with Jesse to find Tommy and went to get the boat instead. Then I finished Ellie's campaign, got mad and took 3 days break. I didn't max out any weapon, any skill, her campaign felt short and Abby killed my favorite character :skull: 

The whole Abby story was obviously written to make the player like Abby and some players still ignored all of that :skull: She has a cute dog (that Ellie killed), told Owen to get his **** together and start caring for his pregnant wife (he was a terrible person but for some reason people like him???), risked her life twice to save a trans kid (that dumb ass kid got his whole family killed :rip:), she simply wanted to kill her dad's killer (reasonable), she spared Ellie and Tommy, she felt bad about killing Joel. All that and some people still didn't sympathize with her. I thought the "bad story" critique would be about how obvious they were at making Ellie the villain and Abby as the better person but I guess for some it was not obvious enough :rip: I liked her part more, it had more action sequences, the hospital part with the huge ass monster was the best in the game IMO(all that to get a scalpel to save a girl that would die 5 hours later :skull:). Now this is a valid criticism IMO,  Ellie deserved better, her gameplay wasn't that interesting.

Then we get to the big fight, Abby spares Ellie and her friends AGAIN :skull:  And we get a cute happy "ending". This part pissed me off a bit btw, it took me 10 minutes to get these sheep to the barn, that should have been a cutscene, same with the museum flashback with Joel etc. I'd rather sit and watch than walk around not knowing what I have to do and getting annoyed. Before Tommy came to the house (**** him) I thought the game was perfect :skull: But then she had to go and find her AGAIN. And for what? 

Then she finally finds Abby again and saves her life :skull: At this point, after she almost died, after Abby refuses to fight her, I thought she'd realize something and talk to Abby. But no she tries to kill her again. And after all Abby went through, some players still wanted to kill her. WHY? :skull: Because she killed Joel who killed her father? :skull: Ellie got what she deserved when Dinah left her.

 

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Liafen
4 minutes ago, rzal said:

Ellie good Abby bad

Brainlet wojak constructor Blank Template - Imgflip

They make you play as the villain 

Brainlet wojak constructor Blank Template - Imgflip

Ellie should have killed you know who 

Brainlet wojak constructor Blank Template - Imgflip

  Hide contents

Joel dead game bad 

Brainlet wojak constructor Blank Template - Imgflip

  Hide contents

I had extremely low expectations for this game, I knew Joel would die (I didn't really care as it seemed obvious from the trailers, Ellie was always the main character anyway), I knew we would play as Abby, I knew she would survive (that was the worst spoiler I read). The game started out GREAT, I loved running away from the horde, I didn't think there was anything wrong with the way Joel died. 

Then we get to Seattle and I was like oh well this is kinda boring I see why people might not like it as much :rip: I was trying to find bad things about the game. And to be fair Seattle first day was boring and Dinah suddenly getting sick from the pregnancy was bad writing but I saw NOBODY mention this :skull: I thought people would hate how unlikable they made Ellie, but no, it's still Ellie good, Abby bad :skull: I was so mad at her when she refused to go with Jesse to find Tommy and went to get the boat instead. Then I finished Ellie's campaign, got mad and took 3 days break. I didn't max out any weapon, any skill, her campaign felt short and Abby killed my favorite character :skull: 

The whole Abby story was obviously written to make the player like Abby and some players still ignored all of that :skull: She has a cute dog (that Ellie killed), told Owen to get his **** together and start caring for his pregnant wife (he was a terrible person but for some reason people like him???), risked her life twice to save a trans kid (that dumb ass kid got his whole family killed :rip:), she simply wanted to kill her dad's killer (reasonable), she spared Ellie and Tommy, she felt bad about killing Joel. All that and some people still didn't sympathize with her. I thought the "bad story" critique would be about how obvious they were at making Ellie the villain and Abby as the better person but I guess for some it was not obvious enough :rip: I liked her part more, it had more action sequences, the hospital part with the huge ass monster was the best in the game IMO(all that to get a scalpel to save a girl that would die 5 hours later :skull:). Now this is a valid criticism IMO,  Ellie deserved better, her gameplay wasn't that interesting.

Then we get to the big fight, Abby spares Ellie and her friends AGAIN :skull:  And we get a cute happy "ending". This part pissed me off a bit btw, it took me 10 minutes to get these sheep to the barn, that should have been a cutscene, same with the museum flashback with Joel etc. I'd rather sit and watch than walk around not knowing what I have to do and getting annoyed. Before Tommy came to the house (**** him) I thought the game was perfect :skull: But then she had to go and find her AGAIN. And for what? 

Then she finally finds Abby again and saves her life :skull: At this point, after she almost died, after Abby refuses to fight her, I thought she'd realize something and talk to Abby. But no she tries to kill her again. And after all Abby went through, some players still wanted to kill her. WHY? :skull: Because she killed Joel who killed her father? :skull: Ellie got what she deserved when Dinah left her.

 

:ahh:

 

Spoiler

I think Ellie going after Abby instead of going with Jesse was reasonable. She's right there, she knows where Abby is... She was literally inches away of getting revenge.

The farmhouse I did not understand first... It was so dumb of her to let go of Dina, JJ and her life, but then again, she had PTSD and couldn't survive with the thought of Joel's killer still being out there, so I get why she went after her the second time. She wanted closure.

 

Switching to Abby mid-game was kind of genius from them. But as I did not know the ending, the steep drop in pacing (for HOURS) was becoming rather annoying, especially with Abby's storyline being kind of a bore. It had its moments (her nearly hanged and the whole sequence after that is tense; the hospital basement is great; and the fire in Haven was one of the most amazing gaming experiences of my life), but it was sorta all over the place and felt like the game giving you random objectives. Because of all these, I enjoyed Ellie's part better.

 

Kinda wish that them making us like Abby wasn't so obvious and on the nose, but seeing people struggling to epmhasize with her... maybe it was justified from them. :skull: 

 

Dina's pregnancy was indeed annoying and clichéd obstacle.

 

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DoctorIce

Lev: "Those were your people"

Abby: "You are my people"

 

tumblr_o0uzpfSJSl1qkuwvto1_500.png

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D_Man3379

 

 

:clap3: 

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Liafen
5 hours ago, D_Man3379 said:

 

 

:clap3: 

:clap3: haters really lost

 

hoping for a stellar WW update soon

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budgier
7 hours ago, D_Man3379 said:

 

 

:clap3: 

Can't believe they aren't giving us DLC with these types of sales :sosad:

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