Are you a centrist?

253 posts in this topic

3 minutes ago, Aden said:

One of the many instances where I disagree with the far left:

  • Any ideology that isn't far left is inherently evil.
  • White people are racist by default because they benefit from a system, even though none of them in the modern era had a hand in the creation of such a system.
  • Social issues are always connected to economic issues (sometimes but not always)
  • The rich are evil.
  • etc

...what exactly do you think makes leftism "left" if you think capitalism... is good?

Like... you do realize much of political theory is shaped around economics.. right?

 

The issue seems more like some of you just need to realize how some of your views are right-wing to the point where your ideologies are just right-wing. Own it. Believe it.

 

It's why that "Classical Liberal" name people call themselves is stupid. "Classical liberalism" didn't die so it doesn't need to be referenced by its past name; just call yourself what it is today - Libertarian. But ofc Libertarians carry right-wing connotations to them and it's funny how people want the positive connotations of left-wing politics (treating the marginalized well, ending inequality as a promise at least) but then actually requiring the democratization and redistribution of wealth? Oop, nope, Then y'all anarcho-capitalists sides come out and y'all reveal how much you hate poor people

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3 minutes ago, Communion said:

 

Capitalism props up a gun industry.

Capitalism props up a vulture-like pharmaceutical & insurance industry.

Capitalism props up the industries that lobby to allow chemicals in food you'd never be allowed to have people eat in socialist countries that centrally plan aspects of their economy and regulate industry. 

Capitalism props up the prison-industry complex.

Capitalism props up lead-paint being allowed in homes of disproportionately black and/or poor people.

Capitalism is the criminalization of not having a home.

Capitalism is the criminalization of giving to the poor without "permits". 

You can’t argue with these! Especially the pharmaceutical/gun/prison ones. Major corporations are in the pocket of nearly every conservative and some liberal representatives in America including Bernie Sanders.

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I lean more left. The right is so embarrassing to me that even being considered a "centrist" is too close for comfort

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Conservatism isn’t equal to evil :skull:

 

For **** sakee :skull: 

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1 minute ago, Domination said:

You can’t argue with these! Especially the pharmaceutical/gun/prison ones. Major corporations are in the pocket of nearly every conservative and some liberal representatives in America including Bernie Sanders.

I don't know if this is saying my argument is poor & can't be used or my argument is good & can't be shot down.

 

If it's the former, sis.... America is a center-right country. But don't do Daddy Bernie like that.

If it's the later, you right, sis!

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No, and if I'm going to be 100% candid, I see centrists as people who can't articulate their political views and just want to feel above everybody else. 

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3 minutes ago, jagger88788 said:

I lean more left. The right is so embarrassing to me that even being considered a "centrist" is too close for comfort

I agree that the right is embarrassing, but the members calling the ideology evil is just :skull: 

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Just now, Revolution said:

No, and if I'm going to be 100% candid, I see centrists as people who can't articulate their political views and just want to feel above everybody else. 

ESPECIALLY the ones on social media platforms like twitter and reddit.

if we were in 1930's germany we'd be royally f*cked :skull:

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10 minutes ago, Communion said:

Laws such as what?

 

Capitalism props up a gun industry.

Capitalism props up a vulture-like pharmaceutical & insurance industry.

Capitalism props up the industries that lobby to allow chemicals in food you'd never be allowed to have people eat in socialist countries that centrally plan aspects of their economy and regulate industry. 

Capitalism props up the prison-industry complex.

Capitalism props up lead-paint being allowed in homes of disproportionately black and/or poor people.

Capitalism is the criminalization of not having a home.

Capitalism is the criminalization of giving to the poor without "permits". 

 

America is the Wild Wild West and capitalism in its most undisguised. 

You can't find America to have problems and then not acknowledge the ideologies behind those problems.

:jonny4:

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1 minute ago, Revolution said:

No, and if I'm going to be 100% candid, I see centrists as people who can't articulate their political views and just want to feel above everybody else. 

Is not a white or black thing, politics are grey, you can’t agree completely with either side, that’s a very sheep-like mindset.

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8 minutes ago, Yndda said:

ok so reading thru this thread again I feel like I should make this post. a post about why the horseshoe theory is a crock of sh*t. because it seems like people here reaaaaaally believe in this.

 

7ba0e81be2242f8e199697fd5de6927b--horseshoe-theory-philosophy.jpg

 

can we be a bit real and rational, y'all :cupid:

 

one fact we should get out of the way is that centrism is just as prone to radicalism as the right and the left. we've seen this in nazi germany when the centrists kept compromising with the nazis, while the actual leftist parties were the only ones who were actively resisting this disgusting force (and unfortunately lost).

 

the horseshoe theory contains a logical fallacy known as argumentum ad temperantiam, aka the "argument to moderation" fallacy. this is an issue for radical centrists like some in this thread, that in their want of not being part of either partisan extreme, they start dismissing both sides as kooks even though one side could very well be right in one instance or another.

 

another issue with the horseshoe theory is that it relies on the left-right political spectrum/typology that is in the mainstream. this means that it's obviously oversimplifying a lot of political ideologies. this is the reason why people prefer to use things like political compasses and nolan charts to show what they really identify as instead of saying "I'm a leftist", for example. then there's also the fact that what "centre" is can change a lot from country to country, but I'm not gonna delve into that.

 

this also forgets to point out that just because there are similarities between two "far" ideologies doesn't mean that they are the same. for example, fascists and communists. both were/are economically revolutionary ideologies, sure, but fascist groups largely protected the elites that already existed, while communist groups didn't protect already-existing elites, and instead overthrew these people.

 

pay attention in class y'all.

 

tl;dr: the horseshoe theory is horsesh*t.

pun 100% intended.

:clap3::clap3::clap3::clap3:

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1 minute ago, Communion said:

I don't know if this is saying my argument is poor & can't be used or my argument is good & can't be shot down.

 

If it's the former, sis.... America is a center-right country. But don't do Daddy Bernie like that.

If it's the later, you right, sis!

The later, of course. I mean, anyone who has ever stepped into a pharmacy and seen the price of medication before your insurance kicks in should know how corrupt corporate medicine is.

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3 minutes ago, Communion said:

...what exactly do you think makes leftism "left" if you think capitalism... is good?

Like... you do realize much of political theory is shaped around economics.. right?

 

The issue seems more like some of you just need to realize how some of your views are right-wing to the point where your ideologies are just right-wing. Own it. Believe it.

 

It's why that "Classical Liberal" name people call themselves is stupid. "Classical liberalism" didn't die so it doesn't need to be referenced by its past name; just call yourself what it is today - Libertarian. But ofc Libertarians carry right-wing connotations to them and it's funny how people want the positive connotations of left-wing politics (treating the marginalized well, ending inequality as a promise at least) but then actually requiring the democratization and redistribution of wealth? Oop, nope, Then y'all anarcho-capitalists sides come out and y'all reveal how much you hate poor people

Nah, I know I'm not right-wing or libertarian. I believe in gun control, women's reproductive rights, marijuane legalization, rights for queer people, I dislike the police state and military defense, and I hate nationalism.

 

I just happen to think corporations aren't the evil entities they are made out to be. I guess I don't care for homeless people after all. I don't even think people are equal to begin with. I believe every person should have the opportunity to prove their worth but I don't think that makes everyone equal. People who only spread hatred like Hitler or people like Trump today are expendable lives to me.

 

I'm not as politically eloquent as some of your are. I just know it doesn't feel right for me to label myself "liberal" or "conservative."

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Yndda said:

ok so reading thru this thread again I feel like I should make this post. a post about why the horseshoe theory is a crock of sh*t. because it seems like people here reaaaaaally believe in this.

 

7ba0e81be2242f8e199697fd5de6927b--horseshoe-theory-philosophy.jpg

 

can we be a bit real and rational, y'all :cupid:

 

one fact we should get out of the way is that centrism is just as prone to radicalism as the right and the left. we've seen this in nazi germany when the centrists kept compromising with the nazis, while the actual leftist parties were the only ones who were actively resisting this disgusting force (and unfortunately lost).

 

the horseshoe theory contains a logical fallacy known as argumentum ad temperantiam, aka the "argument to moderation" fallacy. this is an issue for radical centrists like some in this thread, that in their want of not being part of either partisan extreme, they start dismissing both sides as kooks even though one side could very well be right in one instance or another.

 

another issue with the horseshoe theory is that it relies on the left-right political spectrum/typology that is in the mainstream. this means that it's obviously oversimplifying a lot of political ideologies. this is the reason why people prefer to use things like political compasses and nolan charts to show what they really identify as instead of saying "I'm a leftist", for example. then there's also the fact that what "centre" is can change a lot from country to country, but I'm not gonna delve into that.

 

this also forgets to point out that just because there are similarities between two "far" ideologies doesn't mean that they are the same. for example, fascists and communists. both were/are economically revolutionary ideologies, sure, but fascist groups largely protected the elites that already existed, while communist groups didn't protect already-existing elites, and instead overthrew these people.

 

pay attention in class y'all.

 

tl;dr: the horseshoe theory is horsesh*t.

pun 100% intended.

:jonny4: x2

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1 hour ago, Divine said:

Yes, being a centrist is the best way to go. There is extremism in both liberalism and conservatism.

 

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I am a liberal-learning centrist. I used to be a radical liberal, but I grew out of it. The fact that a lot of radical liberals would label me as being just as bad as a radical conservative for being a centrist just shows how much they only think in black-and-white.

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1 minute ago, champeo said:

I am a liberal-learning centrist. I used to be a radical liberal, but I grew out of it. The fact that a lot of radical liberals would label me as being just as bad as a radical conservative for being a centrist just shows how much they only think in black-and-white.

Ironically the radical left is even more closed minded in their ideologies than actual conservatives. Normally they are not open to different perspectives.

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3 minutes ago, Trent W said:

Is not a white or black thing, politics are grey, you can’t agree completely with either side, that’s a very sheep-like mindset.

Not agreeing 100% with either side doesn't make you a centrist though. Both sides have a diversity of ideas -- what they share are certain values. Just because I'm liberal doesn't mean I agree with every idea or thought that every other person who identifies as liberal pitches. It just means that we share certain values -- I can still choose my own interpretation and points of view. 

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1 minute ago, champeo said:

I am a liberal-learning centrist. I used to be a radical liberal, but I grew out of it. The fact that a lot of radical liberals would label me as being just as bad as a radical conservative for being a centrist just shows how much they only think in black-and-white.

Ironically the radical left is even more closed minded in their ideologies than actual conservatives. Normally they are not open to different perspectives.

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2 minutes ago, Trent W said:

Ironically the radical left is even more closed minded in their ideologies than actual conservatives. Normally they are not open to different perspectives.

See here we go...

 

Image result for eye roll emoticon atrl

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2 minutes ago, Trent W said:

Ironically the radical left is even more closed minded in their ideologies than actual conservatives. Normally they are not open to different perspectives.

And if you do have a different perspective, they'll get their hive to come together and drag or expose you and call you a Nazi or some **** like that even if you objectively are not. A lot of them are insecure kids who cling to this ideology/community to overcompensate for their own prejudices or to give themselves a sense of moral superiority. So counterproductive

 

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1 hour ago, Communion said:

I can guarantee you too most likely are posting from a country with nationalized healthcare, as so often people who have a weird hatred of socialism do.

Yes, I do live in a country with nationalized healthcare. But, like I said before, money doesn't grow on trees. Yes, you get healthcare, but in exchange for that the government steals takes money away from you every month. And even then it's still not "free" - apart from the money you pay every month you still pay a fee for stuff like medical appointments, and you also pay for your own medication.

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1 hour ago, Communion said:

Hmmmm, nope, the nationalizing of certain industries remains extremely popular. :cm:

Some retrograde ideas like throwing people off roofs because of their sexuality are still extremely popular in a few communities in the middle east, and I hope you're not dumb enough to think that means those practices are right.

 

Also, you're better at managing your own money than someone else's money, and that's why the government should interfere as little as possible in the economy, because its investments are usually a burden for the taxpayers. :cm: 

 

But free education (not university though, that one should be paid, even if only after you get your degree) is a great investment because it's the easiest way to save people from poverty.

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Just now, champeo said:

And if you do have a different perspective, they'll get their hive to come together and drag or expose you and call you a Nazi or some **** like that even if you objectively are not. A lot of them are insecure kids who cling to this ideology/community to overcompensate for their own prejudices or to give themselves a sense of moral superiority. So counterproductive

 

THIS

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A lot of issue is that many people don't want to get into analyzing political theory.

 

To me, what I've seen is that so much of politics comes down to:

Constructionism (or aspects of Post-Modernism) vs Essentialism (or Naturalism). 

 

Someone on the left may think:

Race is socially constructed

Gender & aspects of sex are socially constructed

Class itself is very much constructed

 

While someone on the right may think:

Class itself is the natural result of one's work.

Race itself is just a biological reality / race essentialism

Gender is sex and sex is wholly biological and that there are inherent differences in the ways the sexes work

 

To me, neo-nazis (people who believe race is biological) subscribing to sex essentialism and thinking women brains are more suited to follow men than lead themselves is telling (and there are many neo-nazis who dislike homosexuality due to their belief in biological essentialism and that gay people get in the way of white people's biological need to procreate to keep their 'superior" race going). There's a reason why so many of these groups end up overlapping and congregating because there's shared world views linking them that make their views complimentary to one another.

 

White Supremacy and Anti-Feminism and Capitalism are all very much linked. They all operate out of this naturalistic view that inequality is natural and thus inequality is rightful and just -- that the world is unequal because poor people are just not as smart as rich people, that people of color just often don't make as good choices as white people, that women are just different than men. That this is the natural order of things & people who want to change the natural order are authoritarian or marxist. 

 

Constructionists are going to view the world as an axes of systems that marginalize others for the benefit of another group and how this can all be changed through things like social justice. To me, leftists are the true individualists cause they want to free the individual from oppressive systems and bring about equality.

 

This is why "socially liberal but fiscally conservative" makes no sense.

You can see how saying "racial inequality is natural" is bad....

You can see how saying "gender inequality is natural" is bad....

But you can't see how saying "class inequality is natural" is bad?

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