Nights Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 3 minutes ago, Communion said: Oh wait, they're not even trying to hide the essentialist nonsense and going for the cis girlies too. They really said "women are from VENUS and men are from MARS and if you're not a perfect alignment of very specific female sex characteristics, you're a ******* MAN!". Countless female athletes just got effectively ban despite being cis women. This part of the rule is disturbing.
Otter Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Miss Show Business said: Educate yourself and stop validating this garbage. https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRvrDsWP/ Nnn, that video is in pretty bad faith & the intentional misleading information kind of just reinforces the point. Lia Thomas did not break the female record, but she went from being below 500th in the male 200m freestyle to being being 5th in the female. You don't need to break the record to illustrate how she found it way easier to compete post transition against cis women. Her personal record is worse after transitioning but her ranking against her peers becomes 100s of places higher. the arguments that tiktoker is making are about trans women not instantly becoming world No.1s but thats not the point. The point is thar they very comfortably outcompeting the majority of their cis peers. I agree it's not some pandemic, but it is unfair for cis women who are displaced as a result. Sports can never be 100% fair but stoping at medical interventions and blatant discernable sex advantage seems like reasonable places to draw a line Edited March 23, 2023 by Otter
family.guy123 Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 12 minutes ago, Communion said: What about cis women who World Athletics don't consider to be women? What about them? Are they not women?
Communion Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, PoisonPill said: Lia Thomas went from ranking #554 in the men's league to #5 This is right-wing propaganda and literally untrue. It doesn't even make sense as a lie. There's no singular ranking of all women's swimmers as a whole. Why would you even think such made sense? Swimmers are ranked by their times in different categories of races. Lia, pre-transition, was literally a competitive men's athlete. She was in the Top 35 - not Top 600 - for 1650-yard races in the men's league. The way her times collapsed from the effects of HRT literally puts her in-line with female swimmers of similar rank. Edited March 23, 2023 by Communion
Communion Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 1 minute ago, family.guy123 said: What about them? Are they not women? According to the organization, no. Quite a weird thing for people who claim to support women to then endorse!
Otter Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 6 minutes ago, Communion said: Oh wait, they're not even trying to hide the essentialist nonsense and going for the cis girlies too. They really said "women are from VENUS and men are from MARS and if you're not a perfect alignment of very specific female sex characteristics, you're a ******* MAN!". Countless female athletes just got effectively ban despite being cis women. Yeah, the testosterone limit shouldn't be in place if it's naturally occuring.
Chiidish Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 1 hour ago, Femalien said: I don't think it's accurate to say transwomen have been banned "entirely," as it looks like the ban only applies to trans individuals who have fully gone through the puberty of their natal sex. Seemingly, someone whose transition was able to start before puberty would still be allowed to compete And what are states banning right now? They can’t be happy as children they can’t be happy as adults. Sounds like a slow burning existential genocide to me
family.guy123 Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 5 minutes ago, Communion said: According to the organization, no. Quite a weird thing for people who claim to support women to then endorse! Well the user you were responding to was referring to ALL women
The7thStranger Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 Yeah, I'm not going to take the word of a major sports organization after all the ridiculous scandals that come out about similar institutions year after year. We all know that they're core objective is not to uphold the integrity of the athlete. These are sweeping changes targeted at both transwomen that also affect cisgender women as collateral damage. I'd need to read medical studies for myself on this matter to get a more informed picture, but I do not believe that these decisions are squarely rooted in a desire for fairness as their PR claims. Have there been any rules set into place to protect transmen athletes who are competing in the male circuit?
Into The Void Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 The whole thing is a mess but how exactly do you solve it so its fair for everyone?
Dior Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 I am trans woman full of estrogen and passing and I agree. Trans women should not be competing with biological women in any sport professionally. Every time i do physical sport activities with my (bio) sister like swimming and running or cycling I always beat her. if trans people want to compete sports professionally there should be a trans category. Fair is fair & it would be a challenge!
Miss Show Business Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 5 minutes ago, charot said: Your takes are so one sided when we all know and science knows that trans women have biological advantage over biological women. You do realize that the science in this case is not conclusive, right? "bUt ScIeNcE" means nothing when this is a topic still being researched, for one, and when taking into account that science isn't always conclusive. There are also varying levels of quality when it comes to scientific research... Not all scientific research has the same weight. It took me next to nothing to find this review of the literature which concludes: "There is currently no substantial research evidence of any biological advantages that would impede the fairness of trans women competing in elite women’s sport." So then, with your logic, this is the only answer that matters because "sCiEnCe". Personally, I don't understand why this is so difficult to grasp, especially to members in the LGBTQ plus community who are often exposed to education about this topic. Your gender or sex isn't determined by what organs you develop. It's determined by your development, your hormones, your chromosomes, AND your gender identity. As @Communion has posted, under these decisions even some cis women would be excluded because of things like hormones. Cis people can have hormone imbalances. Cis people can have sex chromosomes that don't align with their gender identity because of developmental factors. If you make an argument that trans women have to be excluded because of these things, then so do cis people and trans men, too. The very fact that this whole debate is anchored on trans women and not part of a broader discussion about sex and hormones, just shows exactly what this all is, as I have been maintaining: an orchestrated attack on and discrimination of trans women.
Specter Posted March 23, 2023 Author Posted March 23, 2023 To the person who said "well, they are not ENTIRELY banned", I did consider the usage of the word entirely but: a) I really cannot think of pre-puberty transitioned athletes; maybe someone can help me here? b) This same lot outright legislates away the rights for people under 18 to get gender-affirmative care, which, obviously then, effectively makes them go through puberty... So then, who can really compete? People who are above 18 and not ""medicalized"" as minors but also ones that haven't gone through puberty, which is almost impossible as a phenomenon to not have happened by the time you are 18? 25 minutes ago, Communion said: Oh wait, they're not even trying to hide the essentialist nonsense and going for the cis girlies too. Yes. I included this in the OP for a reason. Love protecting women so much you actually gatekeep away the elite level athletes in a go
charot Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Miss Show Business said: You do realize that the science in this case is not conclusive, right? "bUt ScIeNcE" means nothing when this is a topic still being researched, for one, and when taking into account that science isn't always conclusive. There are also varying levels of quality when it comes to scientific research... Not all scientific research has the same weight. It took me next to nothing to find this review of the literature which concludes: "There is currently no substantial research evidence of any biological advantages that would impede the fairness of trans women competing in elite women’s sport." So then, with your logic, this is the only answer that matters because "sCiEnCe". Personally, I don't understand why this is so difficult to grasp, especially to members in the LGBTQ plus community who are often exposed to education about this topic. Your gender or sex isn't determined by what organs you develop. It's determined by your development, your hormones, your chromosomes, AND your gender identity. As @Communion has posted, under these decisions even some cis women would be excluded because of things like hormones. Cis people can have hormone imbalances. Cis people can have sex chromosomes that don't align with their gender identity because of developmental factors. If you make an argument that trans women have to be excluded because of these things, then so do cis people and trans men, too. The very fact that this whole debate is anchored on trans women and not part of a broader discussion about sex and hormones, just shows exactly what this all is, as I have been maintaining: an orchestrated attack on and discrimination of trans women. How is this discrimination when the decision was based on facts, many trans can even attest to that? And why are you dismissing science as if it's nothing? Edited March 23, 2023 by charot
JanStan Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 A huge HUGE majority of people don’t need to review the science because we actually have eyes and life experience and know that there are biological differences between sexes. We’ve ALWAYS known it. Why trans activists keep pushing this narrative to convince us that this FACT isn’t true and that we should pretend that it isnt even a question is absurd. Just stop. You’re not doing what you think you’re doing and look like a joke outside of the woke internet.
Miss Show Business Posted March 23, 2023 Posted March 23, 2023 2 minutes ago, charot said: How is this discrimination when the decision was based on facts, many trans can even attest you that? And why are you dismissing science as if it's nothing? The way you read nothing I said in my previous post... Please reread it. The science is not conclusive on this topic and anybody saying otherwise is not arguing in good faith.
gugunikko Posted March 24, 2023 Posted March 24, 2023 Not that user with a TikTok video lol a TikTok video
Femalien Posted March 24, 2023 Posted March 24, 2023 58 minutes ago, Communion said: Multiple cis women born with vaginas would still be banned under the proposed essentialists measurements of things like chromosomes and hormones. So it's okay for them to also ban cis women they have defined as not women? I feel like I'm missing something here. What cis women would be unfairly disqualified by these measurements?
Brando Posted March 24, 2023 Posted March 24, 2023 1 hour ago, Miss Show Business said: The transphobic comments in here... As a largely LGBTQ forum, any support of this decision should be a ZTP violation. Period. tbh it's people like you who should be removed from forums like this one and from LGBTQ organisations. You guys hijacked the agenda and are making it worse for everyone else with your idealistic views that are completely detached from reality.
Miss Show Business Posted March 24, 2023 Posted March 24, 2023 1 minute ago, Brando said: tbh it's people like you who should be removed from forums like this one and from LGBTQ organisations. You guys hijacked the agenda and are making it worse for everyone else with your idealistic views that are completely detached from reality. Please do inform me how advocating for equality for trans women is "hijacking the agenda" and "making it worse for everyone"?
Headlock Posted March 24, 2023 Posted March 24, 2023 1 hour ago, Insanity said: no I didn't even have an opinion lol
Communion Posted March 24, 2023 Posted March 24, 2023 2 minutes ago, Brando said: You guys hijacked the agenda
Aethereal Posted March 24, 2023 Posted March 24, 2023 There are also cis people who dream about certain sports and cannot participate due to their health. Life is unfortunately not fair.
liver Posted March 24, 2023 Posted March 24, 2023 2 minutes ago, Miss Show Business said: Please do inform me how advocating for equality for trans women is "hijacking the agenda" and "making it worse for everyone"? stick to watching tiktoks and stop embarrassing yourself
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